Rossi: Reliable E-Cat Stability at 600C “Very Close”

It seems that Andrea Rossi is focused on the tests of his new high temperature E-Cat, and has provided a few interesting details in response to questions on his JONP site. Here are some recent Q&As on the topic.

Q: Does it start with the same time of the the “first” ecat or is it more faster to began to work? A: Faster

Q: Does it uses the same quantity of Ni/H? A: Less

Q: Do you think it still can work for 6 month with one recharge or the new version “burns” NI/H faster? A: Yes

Q: Are the “ashes” still composed with 30% copper or something’s changed? A: Changed

Q: Do you think this new product will require a different certification from the “old” version? A: Yes

Q: When the new product will be released, this will replace the first version or do you think you’ll sell both products: A: No: they have different purposes

The very important target right now is to stabilize reliably the reactor that works at 600 Celsius. We are very close.

From what Rossi says here, there has been some refinement in the E-Cat process going on, making more power with even less fuel is remarkable, since there was barely any being used before. Rossi has said previously that the new configuration has come about because his team now understands why previous versions were unstable at higher temperatures, so it seems that the knowledge of the process involved is growing.

Some people have commented that the current state of cold fusion research is like the early days of personal computing. We look back at early computers and laugh at how primitive and weak those first machines were — but at the time they were truly cutting edge, advanced pieces of technology. Today’s computing is of course light years ahead of were we were just few decades ago, and we could well see a similar trajectory in LENR research. With Rossi’s reported progress here, however, the rate of advancement could be even faster.

  • Pingback: E-Cat ad alta temperatura: Rossi annuncia novità tra una settimana - Energia, Nucleare - GreenStyle()

  • georgehants

    Reply from Rossi, he is either very well up on the techi side or one of his people wrote this.
    Andrea Rossi
    May 26th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
    Dear Italo R.:
    I prefer to give these data when we actually will produce steam at high pressure. So far we are working on the reactor. When we will have finished our tests on it, we will pass to hte Carnot cycle. The kg/h are still an integral, anyway, because you have mass versus temperature if the power is constant: it is an integral, not a number, whose area in the Cartesian axxes system is circumscribed within the x axis,
    the perpendiculars of the minimum and maximum limits of the x ( mass) and the curve formed by the Sigma of the f(x).
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Robert Mockan

      It will be interesting to see how far into power engineering Rossi is. The integral is indeed dependent on temperature and mass flow, but the full state calculations will also need pressure, volume, internal energy, enthalpy… and that is just for the heat engine converter. He also needs the heat exchangers, system controls, and so on.
      He might be up on the subjects, but dedicated professionals could make faster progress during the design phase.

  • georgehants

    From Wired —
    Science is cumulative. But to be truly cumulative,
    we need to be able to read and understand what has come before us. And this comes down to an issue of access.
    Many scientific papers are locked away behind paywalls. But the federal government pays for nearly all of this research! So not only should we have access to it in order to allow science to build upon itself, but as a citizenry we have paid for this research and should be able to access it.
    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/05/a-petition-for-free-online-access-of-taxpayer-funded-research/

    • Robert Mockan

      NTIS, the acronym for the National Technical Information Service, used to provide easy access, but the funding to provide easy public access was cut many years ago. Even after the funding was cut but before 9/11 I found if you contacted the researcher directly, and the information was not classified, chances were good a copy of the research publication would be provided at cost.
      Today however, there is much non-classified research that is simply denied to the public by the DHS, no reason given. And that situation has been getting worse every year.

  • daniel maris

    One tiny snippet of information that supports Rossi circumstantially…

    I heard a discussion on BBC World Service just now in which a contributor noted just how very committed US military base commanders were to finding off-grid green energy solutions to their energy needs.

    That at least chimes in with Rossi’s claims of a military customer (or were they claims on his behalf?).

    • PersonFromPorlock

      Base commanders don’t set policy. All this report tells us is that somewhere in Washington there’s someone in a position of authority over the military who either likes green energy or wants to be seen as liking green energy.

      In other words, there’s not much here and the base commanders are simply acting as bureaucratic bobble-heads.

      • daniel maris

        I’m not offering a comment on the accuracy of the report. But the report did say that the base commanders were like (executive) mayors of a city. They had this discretion to source energy. Perhaps the person who stated that was completely wrong. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between – the armed forces have probably a general policy in favour of energy self-sufficiency and low carbon energy. Base commanders are probably tasked with implementing that under local conditions.

    • Robert Horning

      Without trying to poke holes in the concept of “green energy” as a total joke in and of itself, there are other kinds of solutions that have been considered, and even other kinds of fusion-based technologies that have been considered.

      Keep in mind that the U.S. Navy is still supporting and financing Bussard’s Polywell reactor concept, and ITAR is still under development as well. While I have extreme doubts that a Tokamak based reactor will ever be practical for energy production, there are other ideas besides Rossi’s that could be used.

      Something that has been getting some serious attention within the military has been space-based solar power satellites, where the economics of that technology are attractive for remote bases in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. In theory a couple of soldiers with backpacks full of supplies could set up a microwave antenna system and build a “generator” producing a megawatt of power in a couple of days and operate some pretty impressive weapons or certainly have power in remote areas for administrative tasks instead of having to haul Diesel fuel over long distances by truck for the same thing. Logistics is the real problem, not the fact that it is “green energy”.

      A device like Rossi’s e-cat could fit into that picture, but so could a whole bunch of other technologies. Don’t go jumping to any conclusion or presume anything that hasn’t explicitly been stated.

      • Karl

        The beauty with the e-cat or CF/LENR solutions is the obvious small size, simplicity to install, operate and low cost. This makes it virtually ideal for any individual or home user to set up wherever deemed suitable regardless any backing infrastructure.

    • GreenWin

      U.S. Navy SPAWAR facility in San Diego has published results from 20 years of LENR experiments. It was SPAWAR’s Pam Mosier-Boss who first published confirmations of energetic particles tracked on CR-39 in 2009 at ACS.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090323110450.htm

      This is all reason why denial of funds for humanitarian development of LENR borders on criminal behavior. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence proving the potential for this technology.

      Military considers energy, energy production, energy converted to mobility, weaponry, etc – high value strategic goals.

  • georgehants

    Somebody making the point that they believe Rossi or whoever has nothing, is very fair.
    For people to go over the whole page leaving childish, dismissive, negative quips is an agenda that is pointless and destructive to people wishing to leave their own comment.

    • daniel maris

      Don’t be so precious George. I am sure people who “believe” Rossi can survive having the foundations of their beliege queried. My own view is that there is a lot of evidence against Rossi, but also a lot of evidence in favour of him. There simply isn’t the weight of evidence on either side that can lead to a firm conclusion. But I don’t want to silence anti-Rossi voices. I want to hear the evidence against him.

      • georgehants

        daniel, if you care to read my comment, I in no way said that we should “silence anti-Rossi voices.” I said —
        — “For people to go over the whole page leaving childish, dismissive, negative quips is an agenda that is pointless and destructive to people wishing to leave their own comment.”
        Please comment on what I actually said.
        I agree any Evidence in either direction is good.
        I also agree that there is not the Evidence to confirm either a positive or negative view.
        That is why only Evidence and not “opinion” will win in the end, as with all subjects that science tries to dismiss with inept “expert opinion”

        • georgehants

          Just to clear my point if people go over the page on every negative comment saying Rossi is definitely legit. then that is just as bad.

    • Karl

      These creepy things seem to try to pollute this forum with silly comments while Frank is at sleep. For the rest Frank manage to keep this forum interesting fairly clean. We have seen the tactics to shoot on Rossi with the obvious goal to discredit CF/LENR for a long time now. It is in a way quite interesting to see the silliness and lack of intelligence in these comments coming out so clearly nowadays with all solid and positive indications that promise a real breakthrough very soon. However, during days of lack of positive or any solid information that can be verified these kinds of tactics can be quite disturbing.

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

    I think Rossi is actually claiming higher efficiency. You know – like getting 50 mpg rather than 30. Keep pecking away, George – things have moved way beyond these tactics.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Just to clarify – this orphaned comment was in reply to a now-deleted George Hody putdown, not Georgehants!

      • georgehants

        Thanks Peter, I must get a more unusual name, something like Marigold maybe.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          You wouldn’t be the first ‘transgendered’ ID on these blogs!

  • Alexvs

    No gamma rays. No neutrons. Temperature might be so high as the lattice supports without distorting its fabric. What all these E-Cat people are doing is simply pumping energy into the lattice and letting it later out. Any crystaline element whose stable isotopes differ in four atomic units are good candidates for the process, i.e. Ni, Pt, Pd and Hg if handled below fusion point. For that reason the “demonstrations” show only the phase of energy recuperation and do not extend for long time.

    This is not the way to LENR.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      You mean, like the nanor cell? If you have any data that proves that input energy in any case (Athenor?) is higher than output energy, perhaps you could share it with us?

      • Alexvs

        I do not know what is nanor cell. If anyone can prove that output energy is higher than input energy, perhaps he can share it with us. And if anyone can show a long term sustainable heating process in a closed system… Hurrah!!!

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          This ‘quiet time’ might be a good opportunity to go back through a few topic pages and get yourself up to speed then?

          • Krish

            Well said Peter.

        • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

          The very foundation of the trouble with skeptics is laziness (search and you shall find the evidence, don’t ask me to do your work). Atop that foundation is a beautiful construction they have created that illustrates how their present day understanding of how physics works. Enshrouding that is a filter that I call bigotry, which they use to deflect entry of anything new that might damage their preciously created world view.

          A little reading, with an open mind and they may find their world view collapsing. Could anything be more uncomfortable? Their demand that others provide them with the data, is only another low form of manipulation.

          If I should do their work for them and provide direction to the data, they would say they saw nothing or if they did bother to look would present some feeble argument such as, “it is storing and then later releasing the energy.” The effort is pointless as there are none so blind as those whom will not see.

          • Job001

            Agree! Both extremes “True cynics” and True believers” are lazy. Knowledge takes effort. All babies cry before they learn, it’s the nature of the beast.

  • GreenWin

    Here is a document in need of professional translation. This the scientific paper on the Casertana Electrolytic Cell demonstrating transmutation from Tungsten to rhenium, osmium, gold, hafnium, thulium, ytterbium and erbium.

    This is essentially the ATHANOR Experiment made OpenSource by Prof. Abundo and the Pirelli High School students. It is yet ANOTHER documented case of LENR transmuting elements. In this case Tungsten.

    http://www.ioriocirillo.com/ita/dettagli.documento.php?id=11

    Download the PDF at the bottom of the page:
    Elettroplasma-italiano2.pdf

    • Ivan Mohorovicic
    • GreenWin

      Thanks Ivan. This paper is fascinating and differs from Prof Abundo’s Athanor cell in the cathode he uses is a W powder. In this experiment they are mostly interested in the transmutation of tungsten into other elements – primarily rhenium. Transmutation of course cannot occur unless there is a nuclear reaction and some kind of fusion takes place.

      Another interesting observation here is the presence of significant RF radiation – particularly in the 100mHz range. And plasma temps reaching as high as 3400C!

      The configuration here is the foundation of the ATHANOR cell demonstrated at Pirelli High School. We understand Prof Abundo and Prof Cirillo will be demonstrating their ATHANOR cell again soon. Meanwhile, anyone can build the ATHANOR cell using the materials and directions provided by Prof Abundo.

      Unfortunately the fact no one anywhere has done this attests to the closed, controlled system we operate in – defeating inspiration, and suffocating human spirit. This is not good education.

      • Hampus

        I hope that people are trying to do it. Maybe it just take some time for beginners to master it. In due time we will have independent results, but its gonna take a little longer then a few weeks.

      • GreenWin

        Maybe so. However a good, productive pedagogy requires action and positive results to create inspiration. The students should not have to teach this lesson…

        Realistic simulations would feature HUNDREDS of Athanor re-creations due to an overflow of human interest. The fact this does not occur in your simulation points to design and pedagogical error. Get honest.

  • Mauzen

    Q: Are the “ashes” still composed with 30% copper or something’s changed? A: Changed
    Q: Do you think this new product will require a different certification from the “old” version? A: Yes

    This quite clearly seems like its another reaction going on in the “new ecat”.
    Thats really interesting, would mean that they proceeded in understanding what actually is happening inside so they can alter some things to get another result. Its just improbable that found this just by playing around with other materials and “ingredients”.

    • chris robinson

      Exactly my thoughts . AR scientific team theoretical understanding of the process must have increased exponentially to get results like thes so quickly.

  • joe e

    I wonder if he is very close with the robotize factory or certifications? Always very close to the next big thing.

  • GreenWin

    Heat converted by mechanical contraptions (steam turbines, Stirling engines) to electricity is a square wheel – compared to plasma capture or fuel cell like Mills’ CIHT. But this does not mean the e-cat Ni+H heater will not commercialize well with existent CHP systems like those from Honda, or Marathon Energy Systems. Heck, they just won EPA’s 2011 Energy STAR Emerging Technology Award!!

    http://www.marathonengine.com/intro_eco.html

    Let’s also remember that Eng Rossi is an entrepreneur with an extraordinary vision. We can reasonably assume he’s surrounded with some VERY good scientists and resources. How else did that 1 MW container full of plumbed and wired e-cats come to be? Fairy dust??

    • Sanjeev

      Frankly speaking, BLP has made Rossi, DGT and others look like kindergarten kids with little toys. With working cells with COP touching 100, validations, funding, a working theory and qualifications of Dr Mills, BLP is light years ahead of everyone now.

      Most important advantage being, direct conversion of water vapor into electricity. Its almost too good to be true.

      Its sad that for Ecat, we still have some more “Rossi says”. I’m losing interest in Ecat very rapidly. He should take a hint from BLP and get the validations done asap. He will lose the market anyway. His only hope is if BLP itself is fake.

      The possibility of BLP having nothing is very less now with so many validations and named scientists behind it. Only thing to worry is, whether they will be able to commercialize it. They need to go from mW to kW, a long journey.

      • Jim

        BLP? BlackLight Power?

        Are they releasing a product? Seems like they haven’t actually made a viable product at all. They just made a demo and have been trying to license it.

        It would be interesting to see if they could make a home unit, especially one that was self-sustaining.

        • GreenWin

          It’s amusing to see these tired old debunk tactics. One need not a Wharton School MBA to realize companies make millions of dollars and thousands of products the general public never hears of. Especially in the esoteric energy game. Why is this so hard for you Jim? Or have you really never worked for government?

      • Petrol

        At this point the squelch on my crackpot filter with regards to free energy is set soo high the only form of evidence I am willing to accept is commercially avaliable working product.

        If BLP can deliver working product then whatever you say… there is ALWAYS an excuse always a catch always something not working quite right that only if it is solved the world will be changed forever.
        Enough is enough.

        • GreenWin

          Hey Petrol, MY squelch is set to self-indulgent martian con artists. I agree.

        • Job001

          This is about research ideas, NOT final products. If you don’t want to think and learn, indulge yourself, go shopping.

  • What’sUP

    Gary Wright has been promoting a new project:

    The Open Source LENR Project ®
    http://www.opensourcelenr.com/

    Where for the last two months he has been saying the scientific and corporate world has not been developing the power in the atom for the people of the world.

    Now just in the last days we find from NASA:

    Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, the Realism and the Outlook
    by Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center

    “When we concentrated upon nuclear engineering beginning in the 1940’s we “jumped” to the strong force/ particle physics and leapt over the weak force/condensed matter nuclear physics. We are going “back” now to study and hopefully develop this arena.”

    ——

    Just connect the dots. The opposition to The Open Source LENR Project® is already starting and will come in various ways – this is just one of them.

    *************************************************

  • Andreiko

    Over 3maanden $8,- per vat ruwe olie,nice!

    • mike

      This is getting silly. Write English please so we all can understand.

      • de^mol

        He is saying: “In three month oil will sell at 8$ a barrell, nice”

        • joe e

          I have many fantasies as well its normal.

  • Aphantee

    No idea how long could M.Rossi hold on tight to his inexhaustible amazing stunts?

    • dragon

      Well, at least he is not backing down from what he said earlier about E-Cat. It looks like he is improving the product, so more pressure on him when it will be the time to show it to the world.

    • Robert Horning

      At least until the funding runs out. Rossi seems to be using a “long con” here, at least that seems to be the basic gist of his idea.

      Nailing the guy down on specifics is almost impossible, and even trying to nail down those businesses who might be working with Rossi is extremely difficult. I’m talking nailing down the businesses as even doing something legitimate is hard to do… and something I’ve tried.

      Until this device is in the hands of somebody other than Andreas Rossi and in the hands of a skeptic it is able to perform as promised, there is no way I can believe anything Rossi says about this device any more. I’m willing to entertain the thought I might be wrong, but something should be shipping by now with all of the promises that have been made.

      • jacob

        Robert Horning,i am sorry you need to nail everything down,please entertain the thought you might be wrong.
        I realize it is a stretch for most people to believe anything unbelievable at first.

  • RLW

    It sounds to me like these changes are largely being largely driven by his customer. I imagine they want electricity as well as heat and want the higher effieciny of working at higher temperatures. For if Rossi has in fact a real paying customer (who has both the money and a real interest) I would imagine that customer’s wishes would rank high in shaping the near term development process and marketing and PR… particularly one that can waivet, streamline, or help push the certification priocess (such as a military customer).

    • GreenWin

      Sorry to rain on it – but mil don’t give a flying about civilian application. Most likely oppose civ apps. Would mil give Cessna stealth?

  • Robert

    I think the only customers he could deliver reactors to would be military, they don’t require any UL certification or pollution controlls, I don’t believe they are governed by NRC, or any other government agency. His customer list is very narrow until he gets UL certification. What are u going to do ask the millitary to give u a tour So we can end the debate??

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      I think your assumptions are probably 100% accurate. The chances of a safety-certified ‘nuclear’ home heater are about as close to zero as it is possible to get, in either the US or in Europe. I can’t understand why Rossi tries to maintain the fantasy – maybe he just doesn’t want to disappoint those who have invested hope in the idea.

      There may still be a good chance of Ni-H technology eventually entering corporate-controlled centralised electrical generation systems though, perhaps when the military has found something better (Blacklight?).

      • jacob

        Peter,i agree with that,and I believe AR’s intentions are to bring it into the homes,like Mr. Tesla intentions to bring free
        electricity to everyone ,but we all know that it is a pipe dream ,in a society where the JP Morgans and Rockerfella’s have established some strong foundations, it may
        take more time than we think ,maybe 10 or 20 years,instead of 2

    • Robert Horning

      Military organizations still need things like Underwriters Laboratories certification, and they are indeed governed by the NRC as well. The military has their own certification process (thanks to Hyman Rickover who established the standards that are still tougher than what the NRC uses) and can often get waivers for promising technology, but some mysterious agency who refuses to be named is not likely to be using something like this. If the “military organization” is not even American, then of course groups like UL and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission are irrelevant.

      If this really was a military project in an unnamed military organization that wanted to keep all of this secret, you would stop hearing about Andreas Rossi entirely and this would drop out of the news where even the thought of civilian customers would be dismissed.

      I also don’t even remotely know what kind of certification that UL might provide, other than perhaps certification of the power supply for the “pre-heat” process or something else equally mundane. UL also certifies plugs and receptacles, but I will declare there is no bloody way possible for UL to go out on a limb and certify a LENR device of any kind, or even admit that LENR is a anything other than a scientific curiosity.

      • jacob

        Robert, the military does not need no approval from UL ,as with the guns ,they
        are used to kill,UL is not going to label a save gun with a sticker

  • Jag Kaurah

    What about blacklightpower? They claim on their website to have licensed several power stations

    see

    http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/ciht-cell/

    • Cliff Bradley

      I looked at blacklight power and I have to say that it doesn’t look like it is real. Cold fusion or LENR has been around for decades with people producing the “effect” pretty regularly. But this idea of electrons dropping to a “lower state” just doesn’t make sense at all. What happens when the go back to their regular state?

      I think it is nonsense.

      • GreenWin

        Explain the recent validations.

        • Wes

          Money.

          • GreenWin

            Mean like $250B for hot fusion? 60 years and ZERO results??

          • GreenWin

            Oh dear Wes disappeared.

      • dsm2

        Cliff,
        Specifically hydrogen atoms dropping below ‘ground state’. His theory is that when this transition has occurred the contents of the atom can shift in ways they can’t what at ground state or above.
        .
        The theory is not really dis-proven or proven but it appears no one is working on proving it of late.

        DSM

        • GreenWin

          Doug is correct – I’m becile on this!

  • Robert Mockan

    Rossi says the ashes have changed. Does he mean the percentage of copper has changed? Or the elemental composition? He answers “yes” to “..work for 6 month with one recharge or the new version “burns” NI/H faster?” Well, which is it? If he still uses just nickel with some activator, and hydrogen, how would it be possible the LENR has changed? The logical answer is the LENR has not. Therefore Rossi is simply talking about the same process but with more nuclear active sites in the lattice (thus more thermal power output per unit mass of “fuel”) and his catalyst synthesis technicians have improved the formula so it has better high temperature stability.
    Higher temperature and power density would be a natural result. However, of the two critical variables COP and temperature of operation, once one has a temperature high enough to operate any heat engine, it is the COP that remains limiting. If Rossi had said COP is increased to 20 or so, with a 350 C temperature, that would be a more important advance than COP equal 6 (or 8 or 10) even at 600 C.

    • Stephen Taylor

      At 600C electric generation can be more than 30% efficient so a COP of six both drives the reactor and provides excess electricity. Now the COP is infinite. More electricity comes out than goes in. Fuel usage is insignificant. High temperature is the most important advancement to make electrical generation by conventional efficient means possible.

      • Robert Mockan

        Important yes. Most important, no. Why not?
        You can have “infinite” COP, by your definition, with COP=6 and 17% efficiency.
        Breakeven, with COP=6, where all the electrical power out is sent back into the reactor to power it, only needs 16.7% efficiency, so anything over that gives you “infinite” COP. But would any person call that practical? When using almost all the power system mass to just power itself? Sure, it is possible to increase efficiency with temperature, but even at 30% efficiency, or call it 40%, the gain is less compared to increasing COP. For example, if we have a COP=6 with just 17%, we are over breakeven. But if we have a COP=20, and 17%, only about 30% of the LENR power system mass is applied to power itself. Higher COP numbers are even better, but conversion efficiency is limited by Carnot.

        • Stephen Taylor

          If you could have 350C and COP 20, which you made up, that would be nice. Rossi was talking about 150 and 200C on a good day at COP 6. Now Rossi says he can give you 600C and COP 6. Take it. Please.
          The world changes. A fraction of the currently mined nickel produces all the worlds energy needs for less than it would cost to do it with coal.
          I’m not sure if your hypothetical 350C at 20X is a better system than 600C at 6X. It may come down to practical concerns such as equipment costs and maintenance. The high temp systems are well known. Even at 350C theory and practice may diverge enough to favor the known high temp system. But impractical? Really? A 600C system at 6X is a game changer. That’s practical. (If it happens.)

        • Stephen Taylor

          To your earlier post, I do agree with the analysis regarding enhancement of the process (better utilization of nuclear active sites) rather than a different reaction. The temperature management may be the key. Taking away the heat effectively before it makes too many “pot holes”.
          Anyway, if Dear Mr. Rossi has indeed achieved stability at 600C it is one huge accomplishment and he will be a historic figure of note.
          Last July I wrote a lot of letters to companies asking about turbines and organic Rankine cycle machines and Sterling engines trying to find a match for the low temperature system. The takeaway from those efforts was a strong desire for high temps. Thus my overreaction to any minimization of the importance of normal (high) steam temps for practical generation of electricity.

          • Robert Mockan

            For the example I did make up the COP=20, but the number was derived from research about what should be possible using LENR with less external stimulation from electric power, and using immediately feasible and less expensive power system machinery like a uniflow steam engine connected to a conventional generator. I’m anticipating COP=20, 400 C, and 15% (net), as required for a nickel lattice based LENR power system for a marine application project I’ve had in mind for many years. I’ve had to wait for someone like Rossi to come along to prove it is practical. With COP=20 that factors down to 1/3 power system mass that must be allocated to run the power system, leaving 2/3 of the power system mass that can actually be used to run the boat and boat engines. I still think of COP=20 as the game changer, but Rossi is almost there. With COP=6 my design with 15% net is not feasible, since breakeven requires at least 16.7% net conversion. Even 30% and higher temperature
            if it is still COP=6 the numbers factor down to 56% of power system mass that must be allocated to power the system, leaving only 44%
            of the power system mass that can actually be used to power the boat and boat engines. Of course higher temperature AND higher COP would be ideal, especially for aerospace applications.

          • Robert Mockan

            In line with some of my previous comments, I should make a point that might not be clear to many.

            When you have a COP=6, and a 30% conversion efficiency,
            about HALF of the mass of your LENR based power system has to be allocated to generating the electric power just to power the system. In other words, say you have a 200 megawatt electric power generating station. 100 megawatts of that would be required to run the power station. Or put another way, you would need to build essentially (2) 100 megawatt power stations to provide 100 megawatts to the consumer. That also means you are doubling the number of cooling heat exchange modules, doubling the number of turbines, doubling the number of generators, and so on. That is, HALF the mass of the power station would be used to power the station. Many people might consider that feasible, and perhaps even practical. But I think it would be hard sell, and raising COP much higher would be advantages for every application.

      • PWR

        I’m just wondering why everyone is hung up on 600C without asking the obvious question? How is that little square box able to handle the type of pressures that are associated with these incredible temperatures? Boilers that are capable of creating 600C steam are termed “supercritical” they are typically very complex in design and their tubes are constructed with exotic alloys to withstand the ultra high temperatures and pressures. Supercritical boilers operate near 250 bar which is about 3600 psi. Boiler tubes and drums have a circular cross-section because this is a much stronger design than a square box. As much as I want to believe in LENR, some of this stuff just doesn’t ring true.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          Sorry PWR, but why exactly would you assume that Rossi would use his low pressure prototype design with a high temperature core? That wouldn’t make any sense. If he really has a 600C core then the casing design will obviously have moved on to accommodate it.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          In any case, 600C would require a non-water coolant such as HT glycols or oils, or even liquid metal/salts, which could run in a low pressure primary circuit. The high pressures needed by a turbine would be generated in an off-the-shelf external heat exchange boiler.

    • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

      answers:

      Faster. Yes. Different.

  • hydrinio

    Perhaps one day we will see a Rossi Ecat!
    However with no factories, no customers (secret does not count), no independent tests it does not look good.
    In fact 600 degree vaporware is just the same as 400 degree vaporware.
    How can Rossi be “near to mass production” when he has no factories?
    His own blog postings from a condo in Florida say he is looking at Sweden and the USA now. To START building factories!

    • John

      Wouldn’t it be funny if it was all a sham? Some delusional game for someone with enough money to play it? If that were the case, I hope this website stays on for a while, I want to gloat.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Do you often have this kind of fantasy?

        • John

          It’s hardly a fantasy. I would love Rossi to be right, but I just don’t see it. I do see a lot of delusion here. Time will tell, I guess.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            If you really want Rossi to come through (as any number of ‘skeptics’ claim), why fabricate strange and unlikely scenarios?

            I see very little ‘delusion’ here, just hope.

      • GreenWin

        You think this a far fetched idea? What of Bill’s comment “we strut and fret our hour…” If the parody of life I have witnessed in the last 14 years is anything but a delusional game – I fear for divinity itself!

    • Robert Horning

      I’d have to agree here on this point. If any of this was anywhere close to being truthful, Rossi would try to send around a few prototypes for people to examine, and even have a small production line for the curious to check out even if it doesn’t produce much energy. A small prototype device that could be used just for hobbyists and for a couple of laboratories to experiment with to at least evaluate the technology would go a long way.

      Unless this whole thing is a scam, where such a small prototype would expose it to be the scam it may very well be. When you get to the realm of physics and engineering, you can’t hide from reality and wash everything under the table with pretty words. Either this device works as promised or it doesn’t.

      I certainly don’t see the core elements of this being all that complex, or at least Rossi doesn’t claim that the e-cat has the complexity of even a gasoline powered internal combustion engine much less something like an orbital rocket or a computer. I see a whole lot of foot dragging going on. Certainly no attempt to actually get something built as every “update” is about something bigger and better around the corner.

  • vbasic

    I hope he is continuing to sell the 1.0 version (1MW) and not treat it like a .9 beta version. That would cause further delays. Just treat the 600C version as a different product.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      “Just treat the 600C version as a different product.”

      I think that’s pretty much what he’s saying. However, taking the claims at face value, the improvements would seem to make the ‘Mark 1’ leaky boiler a bit of a dinosaur. The real market is in electrical power generation, not space or process heating, and that seems to be where he’s going.

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

    Rossi’s comments are as usual a little difficult to untangle. However, taken together it’s pretty clear that the new ‘product’ is a purpose-built generator unit that utilises his new 600C core. The ‘different purpose’ is therefore electrical generation as opposed to industrial heating. The need for a different certification path supports this assumption.

    It is not immediately clear whether this would be intended as a small standalone device for home/small business use (or transport?) or a large multi-MW unit for the use of corporate energy providers and possibly marine propulsion. However, as we have heard quite a bit about Siemens turbine-generator units and nothing much about home units (apart from intimations of problems) I think we can safely assume large scale industrial/corporate machines, even though AR phrases his answers very carefully to leave this question open.

    This would obviously mesh with US DOD requirements, and possibly minimise opposition at least from this particular quarter (although I’d be very surprised if the US military wanted to share the technology with anyone else).

    • Cliff Bradley

      I agree that Rossi is being very careful about what he’s saying.

      However, I disagree with your comment about being “surprised if the US military wanted to share the technology with anyone else.” Generally, if some technology is useful for the greater public good, the US military has been very open to share. After WWII, all kinds of inovations made their way into the general public. You had jets – the Boeing 707. You had all kinds of electronic communication. Computers started working their way into business.

      I’d say that the military would be more than happy to share.

      • GreenWin

        Evidence?? According to President Eisenhower the junta developed by mil/industry :

        “This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

        In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. “,/i> President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1961

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Just on a couple of facts, the jet engine was invented in Britain (Whittle) and Germany (von Ohain) early in the ‘thirties and the technology was given to the US military when war became inevitable, and the digital computer was also a British wartime invention (Turing) used to break German codes. Both inventions quickly entered the commercial domain in Britain, after the war.

        As far as I am aware the US military never hands out any technology other than to its contractors, and then under conditions of strict secrecy. Any commercial applications tend to lag a long way behind whatever the military is using at the time.

  • Lu

    Good summary of the latest developments for the E-Cat running at high temperatures, but once again we only have Rossi’s general statements about what is happening. Until we get empirical data from independent groups, we really have no idea what “very close” means. Still this all feeds our hopium habit….

  • Jimr

    I wish Rossi well, but when he says they are very ” close” it worries me. Close is an ambiguous term. When designing something the first 90-95 percent of a project is normally straight forward, it’s the last 5-2 percent that is difficult.

  • barty

    Allways Rossi is “near to mass production” of his ecat, he announces a new breakthrough.
    The he has to test again, get new certificates and so on…

    I think he should optimize a “first revision” of his ecat. If this one is going to market, he can start developing of the second, third,… revision with more energy output.

    • Karsten

      That´s true !
      What about the Homeunits?
      200 degree, then 400, now 600°C, who cares !
      The people want to see the homeheating units!
      I cant believe Rossi any more…

      • dragon

        It is not a matter of believing him or not… if he will not deliver, the other guys will take his share from this emerging market.
        If he is for real, he MUST deliver fast. If he is not, then nobody will give him money anyway and he will look like all of us at what other competitors will give to us.

        • Robert Horning

          It is important to note that the “other guys” may not even be LENR, but something like like space solar power, Polywell reactors, or some efficient geo-thermal plants making electricity cheap. If Rossi can’t deliver right away, he may be locked out of the market place anyway from other technologies.

          This is even assuming that what Rossi is doing is even real, which I have some strong doubts and reservations about.

      • gruttepier

        Rossi has made it very clear that the new 600 degree process is presently NOT considered for the homeunits, because it would jeapordize the certification.
        UL certification for a completely new product/process like the ECat takes a long long time because all safety issues have to be identified, tested and retested.
        The last thing you want to do is make major changes during a certification process.

        • jacob

          UL is stalling

    • Cliff Bradley

      What is this, May? Rossi said he’d have something to show in October? Hhhmmm… Seems to me that May is months before October, right? I’m quite willing to wait for the end of the year before I say anything about this.

      If October, November, December pass without anything to show, then sure, the questions start forming in my head. Like EEStor passed its deadlines and has shown nothing, but that’s been years past its deadlines. But Rossi has made all his deadlines so far so why not just wait for the big one later this year? Why condemn him for not producing something to slake your curiosity?

      • Robert Horning

        I think that was October of last year, but perhaps I’m mistaken.

        Any time I’ve seen Rossi be put to the test to actually deliver something, it usually seems to fall flat and no real independent observations are possible to genuinely evaluate the device.

        This isn’t just to shake curiosity, but to see if there is any shred of credibility in Rossi at all. If Rossi doesn’t want to reveal the details of how his devices work, he shouldn’t be stringing folks along with silly comments like the one with the original post.

    • Omega Z

      It’s highly improbable that a 600`C E-cat would ever be certified for use by the general public in their homes.

      These would be for Commercial, Military or Utility use where you have trained technicians on hand 24/7.

      You’ll be lucky if you see anything greater then 300`C certified for home use. Even that would be subject to just how much pressure was involved & most likely a decade away.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Even 300C requires non-water primary coolant and a heat exchanger, with a fairly elaborate monitoring and control system incorporating multiple-redundancy safety systems. While such a system could conceivably get certified for home use (gas or oil burns much hotter than that) provided that all possibility of thermal runaway was removed, the engineering development and in-house safety testing alone would probably take several years.

        All this work would need to be completed before formal certification could even begin. If AR can design, build and sell far less safety-critical military generators and marine power units for the US navy, why bother with anything else?

  • Hampus

    Perhaps in the future all of our devices will have electricity built in them. I was working with a music performance earlier this week and our speakers fuse blew up because something with the electricity. You need to be so careful with the sounds system and light system, it’s so easy to blow fuses. I thought that everything would be sooo much easier if it had its own power built in. That would be a dream for me as a sound guy.

    • Bigwilly

      Well…

      Im even closer to my own T-Cat that operates at 601 degrees C. Not only that but I own TWO condos in Florida…

      Stayed tuned for more text based development!!!

      BW

      • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

        602 degrees C and I’m in talks with 99 Cent Only stores

        • dragon

          Good.
          Now the only thing that needs to be done by both of you is to give us a date for releasing your products.

          After that date we can judge you, but before … is not fair. Isn’t it?

        • jerry

          Im sure Rossi could care less what the Skeptics and clowns say at this point, VALIDATION is just months away !!!

        • Bigwilly

          Oh sorry.

          I will have validations in October of course! This October, next October…same thing.

          Im building factories ran by a super race of monkies and plan on have 1,000,001 T-Cats in the next 12-18 months.

          Actually, scratch the validation. When you own my T-cat you will KNOW that it works.

          Stay tuned!

          BW