Large and Small E-Cats : What Would be Your Choice?

For the purpose if this post, let’s take a leap of faith and assume for the moment that Andrea Rossi has what he says, and that sometime in the near future both large (industrial) and small (domestic) E-Cats will be on the market in the not too distant future. Rossi is now seems to be saying that he has cracked the temperature barrier with the industrial E-Cats, and they are able to produce steam temperatures high enough to produce electricity efficiently. He has also said that only the industrial E-Cats will be running at high temperatures — safety concerns will limit the domestic E-Cats to heating relatively low levels, enough to provide heat and hot water to homes.

This new development raises an interesting question in my mind. Would a heat and electricity producing industrial E-Cat steal the thunder of a smaller domestic heating unit? For many people, even though they see the benefits of cheap heat, an energy technology that does not produce electricity is somewhat limited in its usefulness. An LENR Electical plant churning out Megawatts of electricity from just a few grams of nickel per year would be something that could capture the attention of people all over the world, and one would expect that if they came on the market they would be highly desirable for businesses, communities, utilities and states. It wouldn’t be as radical a solution as having an E-Cat generator in every home — a conventional grid would still be necessary to distribute power, but existing infrastructures would allow speedy deployment and adaptation to E-Cat plants.

If cheap E-Cat generated electricity were made available through the grid, domestic E-Cat heaters might be less desirable for many who might opt to use electric heaters in homes and forgo the expense and trouble of having individual E-Cat heaters installed. On the other hand, there will certainly be those who will want the independence and cost savings that E-Cat heaters will bring, even if electricity is not part of the package.

Down the road, it may well be that domestic E-Cats can produce electricity safely, but it seems that might take some time. So would you take the plunge and buy an E-Cat heater as soon as it came on the market? Or enjoy the benefits of E-Cat electricity from an industrial plant? Or both?

  • Thomas Guertler

    I would like to answer the question that was asked, because it is a valid one with broad ranging implications. Do we want a centralized power source or a distributed one?

    The answer to this lies in understanding the power usage that most homes use and why distributed generation is best in the long run.

    Most homes use the majority of their power for two things: HVAC and hot water. Both of these processes can be easily converted over with low temperature heat. The rest of the energy is generally for lighting and appliance usage.

    How would LENR meet the needs of most homes? First hot water is a no brainer, so is heat. Cooling and dehumidification are really also easy with low temperature heat. Using either absorption or adsorption chillers, cold water can easily be produced. Lastly how would the other electric be produced? Using low temperature heat, an organic rankin cycle generator can produce power at about 50% efficiency. So, in a home there would be no need for the grid.

    All of these technologies already exist, they only need a heat source to make them widely used and produced. They are already used in places where low grade process heat is available.

    But, these solutions require an investment of capital by each person.

    So, what we will most likely see is a rollout of the technologies at an expensive price point to the early adopters, with lower long run costs and adoptions by the masses to follow.

    If history is any guide, the early adopters technology is distributed out to even the poor about 10-15 years out.

  • Tim

    What is the magic ingredient?

    Apparently Rossi’s device is a rod of granulated nickel surrounded by heated hydrogen gas.

    Rossi’s claim is that above a comparatively low temperature, the heat produced exceeds the heat used to generate it. But not all granular nickel works. The granular nickel requires a catalyst of certain elements.

    What elements? Oh, that is a secret! Only he knows. Without those catalysts the device does not work!

    Aside from the utter frustration of this claim, it reminds me of those claims by Alchemists of old, from the same country, Italy, who befuddled kings, and who claimed that this pinch of special powder, when added to molten lead, turned it to gold!

    Oh, come on! This whole thing is a con job! Secret wires or something. All Rossi has to do, for say $20 million placed in escrow, and a promise of a Nobel Prize, is release details of this “secret ingredient”.

    This whole thing is an utter farce. If it worked he would have released the secret ingredient ages ago (for a price). Why, Barack Obama could secure his election overnight by getting the Navy to build one of these devices, having it demonstrated before him that it works, and releasing the details.

    These Italian Professors get loopy in their old age. It goes with the country. Don’t get carried away with this nonsense. It is like the story of the student says to an economics professor “Look there is a $50 dollar note on the ground”. “No it is not” replies the professor, “otherwise somebody will have picked it up.”

    • P. Bates

      Tim on May 13, 2012 at 5:14 am: At least Rossi et. al. have greater evidence of proof of concept than you nay-sayers (shills?)have. “Oh, come on! This whole thing is a con job! Secret wires or something.” Indeed! And that’s your proof?
      What an outstanding mind you have, not.

  • bob reidel

    i believe that a combination of both would be the most beneficial. that would give the maximum amount of flexibility of choice. this set of circumstances would enable each individual to deal with this technology accordingly to his ability & finances. perhaps allowing individuals to become licensed would allow qualified people to install electrical generation in their homes or communities.

  • JC

    This is OT, but it seems Defkalion has released some photos.

    • timycelyn

      Guess we were both on the site at the same time!



  • timycelyn

    Defkalion. Guys, they seem to have posted a new 35 slide presentation giving a few tantalizing glimpses of what has and is going on there. As ever, frustrating, inconclusive,…but…..

    Its the top item on the list, which is pretty new….

    Frank – maybe a new thread for this?? Whilst some of the pictures tell you nothing (picture of a field!) others do have some interesting graphs – maybe someone can build on what is disclosed here….

  • georgehants

    Worth repeating the report on this website from last week and ask where is science, what are they doing, who is keeping this report out of the media.
    Anybody who deny’s a conspiracy against Cold Fusion is mistaken.

    Hagelstein: Public Invited to See Continuing Cold Fusion Demonstration at MIT
    May 5, 2012
    At the recent “Atom Unexplored” conference in Torino Italy, Dr. Peter Hagelstein of MIT gave a presentation about some of his work in the field of low energy nuclear reaction research, concentrating on the work of his colleague Dr. Mitchell Swartz. Swartz has invented a palladium-based device he names a NANOR. When an electric current is passed through the palladium, excess energy in the form of heat is produced which, according to Hagelstein, is over 14 times the input energy.
    In this talk, Hagelstein says that this NANOR has been running at MIT since January, and it has continued to produce excess heat far beyond anything that could be accounted for by a chemical reaction. Hagelstein says that the public is invited to take a look at the device in action.
    As we have come to expect these days, there has been very little reporting of this development outside a few blogs on the Internet. It would be interesting if some of Hagelstein’s peers at MIT would take a look at the NANOR and make some comments — or even if some outside experts could pay a visit.

    • Barry

      I’m on my way to MIT this morning. Peter Hagelstein has been gracious enough to grant me a thirty minute interview. I’m hoping to video the CF device and ask a lot of questions, but I am by no means an expert interviewer or physicist. I’ll let you all know how I made out tonight.

      • admin

        Great to hear, Barry! Look forward to your report.

      • Yes indeed. Its good to know that not all of us are just armchair pundits! I also look forward to hearing from you later on.

      • zero

        Dang you beat me to it. I couldn’t get time off until next week.

      • Wish I live close enough to do the same. Good on you.

      • dragon

        For some of us that are not in US or close to MIT it is a real pleasure to hear this news from you Barry. Get some great questions ready and GOOD LUCK.
        How do you plan to release this interview and Video? Please keep us updated on … well, on everything.

      • Tom

        … you are better than ALL the journalists put together.

  • GreenWin

    The History of MIT’s Blatant Suppression of Cold Fusion

    Corrupt scientists at MIT draw anger from US Military Veterans.

    American “scientists” are in SERIOUS trouble when they start pissing off the rank and file military.

    What ethical scientist wants to be affiliated with the PFSC (hot fusion lab) at MIT after this ignominious scandal??

  • Cliff Bradley

    I think that the large e-cats will be the first game changers. Probably the Electrical Companies will retrofit existing power plants first. Then they will take advantage of the lack of infrastructure needed to run smaller plants. They don’t need huge supplies of coal or oil, etc. so you don’t need to put them by rail roads and pipelines. So, they will probably start dropping them into places that have long spans of high tension lines, like mountain towns first. Eventually, I expect that they will retrofit all their substations where they take the power from the high tension lines and convert it down to E-Cats and just get rid of the high tension lines and all the expense of maintaining them. Also, hospitals, airports, big hotels, etc. will want E-Cats to provide uninterruptable power. Submarines will all be able to use the larger E-Cats. Large ships, like container ships or cruise liners will be able to be powered by E-Cats.

    Home heating units will be useful, but they won’t be game changers until they can run self sustained.

    The game changing aspect of the E-Cat is not how cheap running it will be. The game changer is the elimination of infrastructure to feed the beast. Imagine no power lines or natural gas lines going to homes. Imagine being able to build a building anywhere you want and not worry about getting energy to it. That’s the game changer aspect of the E-Cat.

    • Guru

      Dear Cliff, large “electrical compamies” will ALL be bankrupt within 4 to 8 years timeframe, EVEN is they buy these E-Cats and Hyperions. Their CFO and CTO will capable doing same calculattions as me.

      • That would be true if (a) a home LENR generator system becomes available and (b) it is not either taxed mightily to level the playing field, or banned on ‘safety’ grounds. I think that at best (a) is some way down the road, and even when available, (b) will probably immediately apply.

        I think Cliff’s scenario is the most likely. I would see skid-mounted packaged multi-MW LENR boilers coming first, to retrofit mainly gas and coal fired power stations, then later (as these time-expire) more localised plant feeding urban centres, with a stripped-down grid acting to match supply and demand by operating switchboards and providing hydro-storage systems or their higher technology descendents.

        State enforced taxation of home power units would ensure that they never become a viable alternative except where there is no grid supply, even if they are not banned outright. Home heaters will almost certainly be subject to the same tax regime in order to eliminate potential competition with gas.

        • Robert Mockan

          You said: “..state enforced taxation of home power units would ensure that they never become a viable alternative..”.

          You forget however that “..citizen enforced nullification of state enforced taxation..” brings down governments.

          Politicians tend to ignore this. Until, of course, they begin to be afraid.

          I doubt there will be any taxation or banning in the long term.

          • JimR

            It’s way past time to dissolve the federal government and any state government that supports it. These parasites are a major drag on all humanity.

        • GreenWin

          And as Stanford population kook, and author of the badly flawed “Population Bomb” has said:

          “Everyone is scared sh**less, but they don’t know what to do.”

          Get a job Paul.

      • Cliff Bradley

        Dear Guru,
        You say that large “electrical compamies” will ALL be bankrupt within 4 to 8 years timeframe, but you never say why. Are you psychic? Why would they be bankrupt? Who’s going to provide electricity to the masses?

        What calculations are you talking about? Are you talking about the economic collapse that is about to happen? Ok, let’s say the economy does collapse, does that mean that nobody will need electricity anymore.

        I really find it tedious when people make pronouncements without any kind of explanation. I’d like to know what the heck you’re talking about, that is if YOU even know.

    • Mark

      I think doing an environmental impact statement for LENR processes will nearly impossible at first. How can you say anything but; “We think we know how this works and we think that it is safe”. “Everyone who has ever used this process has shown that it is safe”. “We know from our experience it safe.” I don’t think you can use language like this in a EI report. So without an enviromental impact report, licencing these processes for a large public utility is going to be impossible.

      This is why I think this can only be sold to
      people who understand what is going on. There
      is risk, and they are taking that risk for its commensurate financial reward just like most everything else they do in their lives.

      Or else it can sold to the military who can cover up almost any untoward outcome – all while keeping the experience information derived completely confidential.

      So, I think LENR *must* be sold to indiviuals and
      those that say otherwise are fakers. Large
      corporations *need* to risk adverse to a tee, even when this does mean their ultimate demise.


  • daniel maris

    I thought it worth putting this up

    It’s about driverless cars being given licences in Nevada and California. I think it’s a useful reminder about how quickly things can change. A few years ago this technology seemed at the outer reaches but now it seems to be accepted as part of our normal lives and we might get used to seeing more and more of these vehicles over the next 10 years. And then maybe in 30 years everyone will be using them.

    • GreenWin

      So… I can let the chauffeur go?

      • Don’t be too hasty. You’ll still need someone to open and close the doors for you.

      • You will still need someone to prise the flints from betwixt the treads of you tyres.

  • Jerry

    great reading here what will LENR do for the planet.

  • Ramp

    Large or small… Simple decision since neither exists: I’ll get myself an electric kettle for 50 bucks, which is as good at converting electricity to steam as Rossi’s demo ‘catalyzer”. If I go fancy I’ll attach it to a controller unit with big numeric displays.