Rossi on What Happens Inside the E-Cat

In the recent interview with Russell Scott of West Coast Truth, Andrea Rossi seemed to be happy to discuss some of the theoretical aspects of cold fusion in general, and even of the E-Cat — a topic he does not often discuss in much detail. On many occasions, Rossi has said that he will not discuss what happens inside the E-Cat’s reactor, so it was somewhat surprising to hear him go into quite a bit of detail of what he says is happening in his invention.

He prefaced the following by saying “What happens for example, for what I can say, inside an ecat?”

“We force the proton, the nucleus of the atom of hydroge (which is a proton) to enter at very high to pressures, concentrating, focusing his mass on an extremely small surface. The pressure is a force that depends not only on the mass that makes the pressure, but also on the width of the surface upon which this mass focuses its weight. So you can reach very high gavelios[?] of pressure without the necessity to increase the mass but you can do it reducing the surface upon which the mass of the object focuses its mass. This way we force the atoms that are in the surrounding of the hydrogen inside the microcaves[?] of the nickel grains, we reduce the surface upon which they produce the starting pressure. The starting pressure that can be for example, 1 PSI [pound per square inch], If instead of the pressure distributing its action upon one square inch, focuses on a decreasing surface up to one square nanometer, at that point the value of the pressure increases exponentially. At this point these grains go so close that their quantistic[?] status can change and emit gamma rays.”

This is a transcipt as best as I can determine of what Rossi said, excluding some extraneous words and phrases. I have put question marks after words that I was not sure of — his accent can be hard to follow at times, and sometimes he seems to make up English translations of Italian words on the fly. If anyone can correct them I would be very appreciative. This transcript was taken starting at around 26:00 of the audio file.

After giving this explanation, Rossi joked, “I have not understood what I said — I hope you can understand better than me.”

  • pomorick

    cavemen made fire by rubbing sticks together. They didn’t have a word for friction, but fires were still created. If Rossi, Defkaflion, Brillouin or whomever can make LENR work and produce commercially
    viable power someone will come up with a clever and
    probably incorrect version of why it works.
    Make it work and put it in production and the understanding of it will grow.
    Before Tesla and Edison electricity was almost nonexistant. Now there are hundreds of thousands of
    engineers who know way more about electricity than Tesla and Edison and yet less…

  • Stephen

    My guess

    gavelious -> levels
    quantistic state -> quantum state
    microcaves -> must refer to a supposed porosity of the Ni nanoparticles.. or maybe to the space between packed particles? who knows…

    However – my opinion of course – this guy has absolutely zero clue of what he’s talking about.

    • Francesco CH

      the “g” of “gavelious” just came because he pronounced the word “high” as “h”+”i”+”g” (the “g” like in the word “gamma”).

      So he simply said “high values”

      • Frank

        Who cares, it’s all nonsense anyway …

        • EnergyGuy

          So tell us, what is your education on this matter which makes you think you can pontificate against Rossi’s description of his Ni-H claim?

          • Stephen

            He’s right, LENR might be real but this description is clearly nonsense. High-school science classes would be enough to reach this conclusion…

      • Stephen

        High-values! that’s it…
        Anyway, yep, sheer nonsense.

        It’s amazing how this guy is able to build such a mediatic show without having anything in his hands, even a reasonable story… probably one could learn something out of this, but I am a bit confused… I can’t… maybe I simply miss his “gift”.

  • Stephen

    Oh my… that’s serious stuff

    * pressure is a force (nice…);
    * if you decrease the surface on which this pressure (or force…) is exerting its action you can increase the pressure exponentially… and this is the point at which my physics professor would have committed suicide;
    * then some quantum stuff goes on and protons change and emit gamma rays…

    Mmhh… I missed the nuclear fusion step 🙂 People, if these declarations are true, I am impressed by how much this guy does not have a clue.

    I appreciate very much the final comment “I have not understood what I said”… I think he was not joking, the guy must have some good sense of humor. I confess that sometimes I have some insane admiration for him…

    • Stephen

      Well… beyond the force/pressure/surface nonsense… indeed it is true that an H atom will strike the metal surface and distribute its action on a small surface…

      but this is an incredible triviality…

      • brianj

        … and the fact that it is trivial makes the argument incorrect? I see!

  • don gould

    May the forth be with you .

  • don gould

    may the forth be with you

  • Daniel Steward

    Rossi’s biggest problem is that he’s trying to commercialize something that a) flies in the face of “established” science, b) threatens the big, established fusion research projects, and c) threatens the established energy establishment. Basically he’s trying to prove that something works without giving away any secrets; understandable but probably pointless.

  • GreenWin

    The Atom Unexplored:

    “The existence of the anomalous phenomenon is now without doubt, because there is a large amount of absolutely irrefutable and unassailable experimental data.

    Today it is pathological to deny all the results that were seen and measured. For example it is necessary to explain how it is possible that charged particles that you can see here… and here a bigger one… with energies greater than 6Mev, photographed in the cloud chamber can be emitted by a simple metal rod just after extraction from the [LENR] cell.” Prof. Francesco Piantelli, Univ. Siena / NichEnergy Inc.

    Piantelli also showed a graph indicating stable thermal energy around 300C AFTER the input power to the cell had been terminated.

    If I heard correctly this phenomenon continued for “several months.” Astonishing.

    What an amazing new field of science. What wonderful opportunity for young scientists!!

  • Dave

    I can tell you exactly what happens inside the E-Cat. Power passes through resistors heating water into steam. That’s it. That’s all that happens.

    So is Rossi lying now when he says the E-Cat creates gamma rays, or was he lying to the Florida Bureau of Radiation Control when he told them that it didn’t? Even you LENR Truthers have to admit one of these has to be a lie.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      What original thoughts! How amazing that no-one ever expressed them before.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Point taken, Rossi does contradict himself from time to time. However there is enough data to support LENR as a phenomenon, there is something happening here and it would be in the best intrest of the entire planet to give as much support as possible. We have been milked of our earnings and savings for the past 20 years needlessly, whilst polluting and destroying the environment at the same time. Haters and naysayers are promoting to continuation of these actions. If your not supporting the advancement of this technology, your supporting those who suppress you.

      • GreenWin

        Andrew, skeptopaths feed at the totalitarian trough. So they scheme and whine and futilely disinform to keep cheese on their table. And I mean CHEESE.

      • alex

        This is not one of those times. Skeptics are usually misinformed, or walk into the 4th act of a 5 act play, and base their opinion on the two or three most recent news clips.

    • alex

      He has always said it emits Gamma Rays from the beginning. But he also says, those are weak, and the chamber in which they are created is sufficient to nearly fully block the effect. You’ll have to inform yourself better if you want your contradiction to hold weight. Good luck with that.

      • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

        Right, but saying that the lead is useful is not coherent with similar claims from DGT, anf from himself to nuke regulator.
        it seems that the reactor itself is enough to block the few and weak gamma.
        the heat is absorbed by the reactor itself, and lead is cold…

  • georgehants

    From Cold Fusion Now–very interesting, if transmutation is a part of Cold Fusion.
    LENR and Alchemy
    May 4, 2012 / Brad Arnold
    Alchemy is a form of chemistry and speculative philosophy practiced in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and concerned principally with discovering methods for transmuting baser metals into gold. The word “alchemy” calls up the picture of a medieval laboratory (…)
    http://coldfusionnow.org/?p=17390

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  • AB

    The Atom Unexplored

    Cold and hot fusion conference in Torino, Italy. Currently live streaming LENR conferences in English.

    http://theatomunexplored.com/?page_id=74

    • AB

      Hagelstein just said the MIT Nanor experiment has been running since January and is still running, producing hundreds of times more energy than any possible chemical reactions.

      • georgehants

        Thanks AB updates appreciated.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        This modest experiment seems to be the best proof currently available of the reality of cold fusion (by whatever name). Sen. Bruce Tarr is still following progress (http://on-the-rag.com/2012/04/19/sen-tarr-visits-the-jet-energy-nanor-iap-demo-at-the-mit/).

        Apparently he asked some intelligent questions of the group, which included Dr. Swartz, Prof. Hagelstein and Brian Ahern, but the questions are not specified in the article above. Coverage outside of specialised blogs seems to be more or less nonexistent.

        • georgehants

          Morning Peter, news from your comment I feel, is 100 times more useful that a million words of repetitive posturing that seems to pass for evidence in another place.
          For all they write they know the same as us–
          Both Rossi and Defkalion may or may-not have the goods and only time will tell.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            Hello George – you are too kind (I mean it!).

            The ‘other place’ you mention is a mess – no sooner was the blog back up than it was totally overrun by the trolls. A few ‘real’ contributors are still trying to make themselves heard but they are being completely overwhelmed by the shill’s negative garbage.

          • GreenWin

            Gentlemen, that ship has been abandoned. Its sinking is a hazard to the ocean – a boon to human evolution.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            For the second time, in effect. By restoring the comment function at ECN but failing to moderate in any way the tide of disingenuous junk from hody/milstone, the popeye team etc, ECN admin has simply provided a well-visited platform for the shills. At a rough guess, no more than 20% of the verbiage there is from real contributors, and most of that is just trying to refute the latest half truths from the trolls.

            Frank, many thanks for providing this relatively peaceful sactuary! Long may it continue to be so.

      • GreenWin

        Correct AB. He amended his statement to “over a 1000 times” chemical reaction – had the NANOR metal been pure Zirconium. It was ZrO.

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

    Localised, massively increased gas pressure is obviously not possible per se, unless the hydrogen atoms or nuclei are contained in some way. The only sense I can make out of Rossi’s theory is that his ‘micro-cavities’ are not physical surface imperfections or similar in the nickel grains but interstitial spaces within the lattice structure (as one or two others have speculated here).

    To ‘explain’ Rossi’s explanation requires some dynamic factor that could increase ‘pressure’ after hydrogen nuclei have moved into such interstitial positions. The only one that seems to be available might be magnetostriction – distortion of the lattice resulting from an EM field, the latter generated by a coil or antenna, or by direct current flow through the nickel.

    Perhaps it might be possible for such distortions to periodically ‘crush’ hydrogen nuclei between nickel atoms in such a way that the proton is physically forced close to the adjacent nickel nuclei – the massively focused ‘pressure’ that Rossi speaks of. I don’t know if this is actually possible, but it might be one possible way to interpret his theory of what is happening.

  • Guru

    GM for years use hydroforming at cars parts production.

    “Confidential” part showed by Rossi 7 months back developed by Defkalion looked from distance as some sort of (fuel) pressure injection pump.

    Rossi stated X months back: “and we after that rise pressure”.

    So they simple rise pressure by this or it is some micro-anvil stupido bazmek.

  • daniel maris

    A new name? Microcavity Energy of MCE?

  • Torbjörn

    “…this way we force the atoms that are in the surronding of the hydrogen, inside the microcaves of the nickel grains…, we reduce the surface upon witch they produce the pressure, the static pressure.
    … at this point it happens that these balls/grains go so close so that their quantistic state can change and they can emit the gammarays.”
    http://www.energikatalysatorn.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=479#p20568

  • Brad Arnold

    http://coldfusion3.com/blog/us-company-could-begin-licensing-lenr-boiler-technology-within-a-year

    “When asked how the system works, Godes said it is creating what he calls a controlled electron capture reaction. This is a two-step reaction; the first step is endothermic which absorbs energy. In this step nucleons accumulate on a hydrogen, palladium or nickel nuclei. When enough nucleons accumulate the second step or an exothermic reaction that releases energy and generates heat occurs.”

    http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html

    Robert Godes explained it’s not a nickel-hydrogen fusion reaction. Nickel is merely a catalyst. “A tiny amount of hydrogen protons are converted into neutrons. These newly produced neutrons are soon captured by hydrogen ions or other atoms in a metallic (e.g. nickel) lattice near to where the hydrogen ions were converted to neutrons. The captured neutrons generate heat because the new atoms that are one neutron heavier shed excess binding energy as heat to the lattice, resulting in a dramatically clean, low-cost, hi-quality heat output.”

    • Brad Arnold

      I hope you realize that Godes explaination of why the LENR reaction produces heat conflicts with Rossi’s.

      • http://www.lenrforum.eu/ Alain

        his discussion about gamma is clearly incoherent, since the beginning.
        no noticable gamma is claimed by DGT, by others replicators, nor by himself to the Nuke safety.

        Rossi tall about 511Kev gamm, which are coherent with beta+ decay, coherent with Brillouin claimed 4H->4He + e+ + v

        note that Brillouin is not far from Widom-Larsen theory… the triggering of electron capture is a bit different, and the neutron capture is claimed to be mostly on H if you tune it well.

        I don’t know who is right, but for now the gamma are not credible, unlike the ultra slow neutrons (which are not sure, but credible).

  • Zalomi

    I think there is a need to get update for the present atomic theory.

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  • Francesco CH

    “We force the proton, the nucleus of the atom of hydrogen (which is a proton), to enter (NOTE: in the nickel) at very high pressures, concentrating, focusing its mass (=the mass of the proton) on an extremely small surface.

    The pressure is a force that depends not only on the mass, the mass that makes the pressure, but also on the width of the surface upon which this mass focuses its weight. So you can reach very high values of pressure without the necessity to increase the mass: you can do it by reducing the surface upon which the mass of the object focuses its mass.

    This way we force the atoms that are in the surrounding (ie around) of the hydrogen into the microcavitations inside the nickel grains, so we reduce the surface upon which they produce the starting pressure.

    The starting pressure, that can be for example 1 PSI [pound per square inch], just to say… if, instead of the pressure distributing its action upon one square inch, focuses on a decreasing surface up to one square nanometer, well, at that point the value of the pressure increases exponentially. At this point, these balls, this grains go so close that their quantum status can change and emit gamma rays.”

  • Daniel M. Basso

    What he explained is very similar to the process described by Robert Godes, in a link published here not long ago:
    http://pesn.com/2012/04/19/9602078_Brillouin–Understanding_How_LENR_Works_Will_Enable_Us_to_Be_First/

    I wouldn’t bet, but if I would my chips would go to Godes.

    • Jerry

      Godes has not put anything on the table as Rossi has, they just have claims and more claims – My Chips are with Rossi.

      • dragon

        I see your chips and I raise you a Defkalion…

  • Robert Mockan

    Rossi is saying protons (from hydrogen atoms),
    when in the nickel grains, cause pressure in
    the grains that force the atoms closer
    together, and that the end result is a change
    in quantum state, and the release of gamma
    rays.

    (Note from me: The only allusion to
    mathematics in his “theoretical description”
    is his verbalizing of the equation p=F/A,
    where p=pressure, F=force, and A=area. This
    does apply to an anvil press, where a large
    pressure is generated on a small sample, from
    a lower pressure applied to the anvils).

    In total he says exactly nothing meaningful or
    useful. It is scientific sounding babble.

    Evidently Rossi had “something” explained to
    him, by some person unknown, but either
    understood so poorly he does not have a
    clue what he is talking about, or the person
    he talked to may be an idiot. Thus trying to
    make sense of what Rossi even means from what
    he said is a waste of time.

    Still, it could be worse. At least he admits
    he does not understand it himself.

  • DistributedIntelligence

    There must be some quantum effect occurring between the grain boundaries that has not yet been fully understood. The H atoms are somehow getting caught in this process and causing the nickel to transmute into copper with a gamma ray as a product.

    As a casual observer, I can’t help but wonder what part the Casimir effect plays in the pressures exerted between the grains of Ni. Traditional models of the Casimir effect are shown with two dimensional forms, but the effect must be present with three dimensional particles masses as well.

    From Wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

    “On a submicron scale, this force becomes so strong that it becomes the dominant force between uncharged conductors. In fact, at separations of 10 nm—about 100 times the typical size of an atom—the Casimir effect produces the equivalent of 1 atmosphere of pressure (101.325 kPa), the precise value depending on surface geometry and other factors.”

    Another possible source of significant motion at quantum level is phonon movement across the Ni lattice.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon

    We will crack the mystery soon!

    • GreenWin

      Phonon and plasmons both appear to play some role. The lattice geometry at the nanoscale mentioned would induce the Casimir effect as well as potentially compressing the H1 electron to lower than ground state.

  • wes

    Microcavities in nano materials are indeed the key. High velocity particles entering a nano cavity experience opposing coulomb forces, cancelling the repulsion, allowing for capture. Future development of an optimized “atomic spark plug” requires precise control of nano fabrication. Until then, we are stuck with low efficiency LENR due to randomly configured nano surfaces. Mr. Steven Krivit (aka The Snake) has recently put forth a similar view on his site. Having Rossi make real progress in this area would be like Al Gore inventing the next generation of microprocessors.

    • GreenWin

      It is not up to Rossi to determine what is happening. There are now thousands of researchers above and below radar working on this and wes seems to be close. At nano scale nuclear forces are changed allowing lattice atoms to “reach out” and grab H1 that has been compressed lowering Coulomb.

      Snake promotes the Widom Larsen theory which is dismissed by most nuclear physicists.

      • GP

        1609 – Mr. Galileo Galilei talking

        “Hey I think I figured it out, we are in a solar system, meaning that we are going around the sun (not the other way around you silly buggers) and our solar system is in the middle of a galaxy that looks like a dim “milky” glowing band arching across the night sky, which for convenience I will call the “milky way”. If you folks think about it, seasons now make more sense, and religion the way we know it makes a little less sense. I’m sure you guys get it. Right?

        2012
        ……………………………………

        • wes

          Personally I like my mushrooms cooked.

        • GreenWin

          Ye who like shrooms cooked or raw fly a bit higher than others.

  • John

    I simply don’t believe it. The reason? No scientist of note nor any university of note has stated that this works reliably (or if at all). I would love to be proven wrong. I guess it’s a waiting game now.

    • Ged

      Did you watch the CERN conference on LENR? There have been dozens of researchers publishing in this field, at universities (MIT) and even companies (Mitsubishi) of note.

      • GreenWin

        Don’t feed trolls – they are unwanted.

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      Are NASA, MIT, Ames national labs “of note” enough for you? See this.

  • The duke

    didn’t he say before that his device was safe because it didn’t produce Gamma Rays? Or did I miss something along the way?

    • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

      If your device creates gamma rays it requires Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. Even if the rays are stopped by some sort of shield.

      • GreenWin

        Gamma measured in LENR appear to be below background – meaning they are insignificant. The planet is showered daily with gamma and beta particles from the cosmos.

        “In addition to the cosmic and terrestrial sources, all people also have radioactive potassium-40, carbon-14, lead-210, and other isotopes inside their bodies from birth. The variation in dose from one person to another is not as great as the variation in dose from cosmic and terrestrial sources. The average annual dose to a person from internal radioactive material is about 39 millirems/year.”

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Trying a spot of scaremongering, CP?

        • http://e-catsite.com Ben

          LOL Pete. It seems to be the old “it is definitely a hoax but, if not, its very dangerous.” I really don’t see how people can play both sides with a proverbial straight face. but try they do.

  • Jason

    I think he is talking about interstitial hydrogen or hydrogen atoms in between the nickle atoms in the lattice. The nanoparticles of nickle provide a larger total surface area for the hydrogen to act on.
    This is just one aspect of how I think it works. Imagine that a hydrogen atom is inside a nickle nanoparticle, between the nickle atoms. The hydrogen atom is not chemically bound to the nickle. What keeps the atoms apart but the Culomb forces of their electron clouds. Now imagine what would happen if the hydrogen atom is ionized by subjecting it to the right microwave frequencey. The now naked proton will be able to travel through the electron cloud of a nickle atom. If the proton gets close enough to a nickle nucleus the weak atomic force will reach out and grab it pulling the proton into the nucleus. This more tightly bound system will emit energy.

    • blah43

      This is very understandable in layman’s terms. However, why would the Hydrogen atom “see” more more surface inside a nickle nanoparticle than inside bulk nickle? Or do you mean it encounters more surface area while floating between nanoparticles?

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        The latter I would think. As hydrogen only has to penetrate a relatively short distance, gas loading of the nickel will be quick and complete, resulting in higher reaction rates. Of course there may be other factors, especially if (as generally supposed) there is catalytic ionisation of H2, and also if external EM stimulation is in play.

  • http://www.replication-meyer.be.ma Stanislas Bauer

    Absolutely not sure that Rossi knows why it works !

    • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

      It takes a wise man to say “I don’t know”.

      • knoert

        That’s the best statement I’ve heard in a long time!

  • enlightment

    The same FORCE on a smaller surface creates a larger PRESSURE.
    but
    The sam PRESSURE on a smaller surface creates a smaller FORCE…

    I think Rossi is totally confused here.

    • don gould

      May the fourth be with you

      • don gould

        We must think back to Christopher Columbus and global warming .Fact Christopher returned and claimed the world was round .Do you remember how many thousands of people that followed in his wake and fell of the edge of the world until scientists finally came to the consensus that the world was round that in turn saved the lives of sailors that would have otherwise drowned and today the consensus of all the scientists that matter about global warming is the only thing that keeps this world from freezing .So perhaps Rosco is lying as Christopher did before their was a consensus of scientists He after all is also an Italian their is a consensus on that.

        • don gould

          well that shut everybody up for a while

          • don gould

            moon is in the Seventh House
            And Jupiter aligns with Mars
            peace will guide the planets
            And love will steer the stars
            This is the dawning of the Age of Asparagus