Discussion of Celani and Srivastava Presentation at CERN

I heard most of the webcast from CERN today and have picked up on some interesting comments and details, but the information is coming so thick and fast from both speakers that I have only been able to gain a somewhat cursory impression of the material presented.

To begin with I have to say that Dr. Srivastava’s presentation went over my head rather since he focused on the theoretical aspects of LENR, but I have been very interested in Celani’s presentation who has cataloged many experiments that he and many others have conducted (including one at NASA in 1989) which he states in many cases confirmed the Pons and Fleischmann effect. Celani spoke very well but with a very heavy Italian accent which caused me to miss some things (I was listening and did not read his slides) — he also went longer than scheduled. Celani mentioned Rossi and Defkalion but explained that he could not verify their claims because they have been working in secret. Another interesting fact that came from Celani was that Mitsubishi and Toyota have both been involved in providing funding for LENR research, along with the Japanese Government — and also the Japanese Emperor!

Until a more thorough report is available I’ll ask people to post their thoughts impressions in the comments section below. I expect that before too long the video and slides will be archived and be available for review. I’m looking forward to reviewing his presentation. Thanks!

UPDATE: Here is a link to the slides and other documentation for today’s presentation: http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.py?materialId=slides&confId=177379&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

  • s

    Can someone simply post what was the highest sustained power listed at the meeting that anyone besides Rossi has demonstrated? I don’t have time to read through all the filler and chatter. What was the highest sustained power besides Rossi’s claims?

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    I am accustomed to listening to people with heavy accents but listening to Celani was torture.

    • Robert Mockan

      The problem he was having at the podium pushing buttons is worrisome. He is a leading light in the LENR field?

  • daniel maris

    Anyone know what happened to the Miley presentation?

  • NH

    Philippe GEORGE
    March 23rd, 2012 at 4:32 AM
    Dear Mr. Rossi,

    Is the hardware and software for controlling the reaction it implemented on a critical standard (CEI60780, EN50128) respecting the protection of persons? Otherwise, I doubt that your device can be sold in Europe…

    Best regards
    Philippe GEORGE

    Andrea Rossi
    March 23rd, 2012 at 8:13 PM
    Dear Philippe George:
    I want also to add that:
    1- the robotized line to produce the E-Cats is already in production
    2- the programs of the robots will be adjusted as soon as we will have the requirements from the certificators
    3- we already got the green light from all the competent Authorities, so far the certifications are done
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • jack

      Priceless. The guy is asking a very specific question. And Rossi is like blah, whatever. E-Cat is awsume. LoL

      • artefact

        No. there was just that statement from Rossi missing in NHs post:

        Dear Philippe George:
        We are under a process of certification made by authorized entities: I am pretty sure they are making the certification respecting all the specific laws existing in the matter.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

      • Jimr

        It,s a very sad situation ,and I had such hopes with Rossi. Our only hope now is with Defkalion and that may not be good.

    • Robert Mockan

      So Rossi has a cnc milling machine set up, just waiting for the program to make parts?

      • NH

        I am fairly certain that in a custom configuration there are specific considerations for limits, safety zones, electrical safety, interstage test fixtures, fire safety systems, pressure safety systems, as well as incindental stuff (signage, wash stations, chemical storage, battery/UPS systems, Painting booth environmental systems, and inventory control systems). Some of these would actually overide product process flow.

        • Robert Mockan

          I’ve worked around CNC machines. That is all in the operating manual.
          All Rossi would have to decide is where to put the yellow floor tape. The machine operator pushes the buttons, and the program it is running takes care of the rest.

  • Cliff Bradley

    Necessary but not sufficient. The problem with Pons and Fleishmann’s experiment was that they apparently inadvertently found all the individual necessary but not sufficient conditions to have a tiny bit of anomalous heat produced. However, since nobody knew what they inadvertently did right and couldn’t get the same things inadvertently right, it was assumed that they either had measurement errors (fooled themselves) or that they had conducted a hoax (fooled others).

    According to the presentations, I surmise that they know that the effect is real. They know that it is nuclear. The DO NOT know all the necessary but not sufficient conditions to replicate the effect consistently with high power. They seem to think that they are close.

    The “formula” to make LENR work is probably actually “formulae” in that the effect seems to not be restricted to nickel and hydrogen, but also takes place with palladium and deuterium as well as other combinations. In five years we may have lots of different possibilities to choose from.

    That’s basically what I got out of the presentations. I’m not a physicist so a lot of it was probably wasted on me, but I understand practical things and if Rossi has solved the practical problems of “necessary but not sufficient”, then it’s a game changer.

    • dragon

      I have to admit that your comment summarize very efficient all my conclusions or feelings about this very important (historical) CERN meeting.

      To add to your conclusion, Celani’s request at this meeting was to concentrate on LENR as much as we concentrated on hot fusion for about 60 years (200 Billion$). It is a call for help from the mainstream scientists to add their efforts on LENR.
      I hope Celani’s call attracts sufficient numbers of new scientists for this wonderful new field of science.

      • sapain

        well said.

  • Stephen

    Ok, finally I managed to see this webcast!!

    Mhhh, I have seen a number of conference talks, nice ones, bad ones, boring ones, etc… let me tell you I did not like very much Celani’s one. Not very effective, in many different ways.

    If I had just seen this, I would walked away completely unconvinced…

  • Werner

    The following articles contain interesting information:

    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fleischmann
    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Pons

    In 1992 (after their 1989 discovery) Fleischmann and Pons resumed their research in France with sponsorship from the Toyota corporation. Their laboratory eventually closed down after many years of research, 12 million pounds sterling spent, and without any practical results.

    To me it seems that they had a fair second chance at making it work. They fact that they failed just shows that this is a very difficult field of research; which makes me doubt Rossi’s claim of success.

    Anyway, today is the 23rd of March 2012. Fleischmann and Pons originally announced their results to the world on 23 March 1989 exactly 23 years ago.

  • linda

    Sorry, but can someone please supply a link to the actual webcast, not just the webcast homepage? Thank you.

  • RedRyder

    I posted this in conversations on several main stream comment sites a few months ago. most of this is way over my head but, I may have stated something that was relevant to what is going on? For the next day my user name and passwords were deleted from those main stream web sites and to this day I can’t register to get access to comment on either site. I am not sure it has meaning to this subject? I just find it very curious that I can no longer post in the comment sections, why?

    I posted the following:
    I have a strong feeling that inside the pressure cell there is a release of photons. The heat also creates vibration (aka frequencies)
    I don’t understand it but Photons and almost undetectable Gamma are created during the microscopic explosions that originate at the subatomic level.
    Some of these photons must be released to create what I speculate is like a conduit to outside particles of matter beyond my understanding.
    I consider it would be visible light that needs to be throttled away from the pressure vessel through a window of some sort.
    The correct throttling of the release of photons will give some control to the process.
    He has been hitting it with frequencies, trying to stabilize the reaction or (transformational state).
    This is working but not as well as he would like.

    In the strange way my brain works, what I in vision is going on in the pressure vessel is, he has a catalyst that is formed to as perfect of a circle as possible.
    It is used to keep the Ni particles at a specific distance apart. This distance is critical for the Ni particles that also are all small (unknown how small) and as round, this helps in keeping the distance between nanometer Ni spheres at a distance that is standard as possible. What this standard is (is unknown)?

    The introduction of heat will slightly expand the electron orbits causing them to come close enough to in a way scrub on each other with hydrogen under pressure involved in some way.
    Thus scrubbing by as many electron orbits as possible, the scrubbing of the electron orbits creates a frequency and all these effects combine to somehow allow the barrier forces to be reduced.

    During the transformational process electrons are given up and in some cases accepted changing Nickel to copper, copper to zinc, so on and so on, possibly hundreds of times a second during the reaction. Some hydrogen may also supply electrons and or take some in, to become a solid? (Unsure about that one)

    While these transformational states are occurring during the reaction a very small amount of Ni molecules will stay as a lighter or have given an electron.

    The very light Gamma is produced by these extra electrons somehow combining with a
    (unknown molecule) then exploding at the subatomic level, Creating photons “that may be visible light” and a very, very small amount of Gamma.
    Thus, a lack of radiation?
    Or have I just explained a static charge?

    For some reason I keep coming back to insist that photons should
    to be throttled out of the chamber for control to be established. But, at what volume? Fascinating!

    • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

      There are three methods of transferring heat, by conduction, by convection, and by radiation. The conduction method requires contact between conductors which would in this case be the nickle powder and such in the reactor. That method is very poor as the contact between the powder is only at very small points of contact. An alternate conduction path is through the hydrogen between the particles which is not good as gasses are poor conductors of heat. The second method of transferring heat, by convection, is almost non existent in the reactor as the powder blocks the formation of natural convection currents and there is no forced draft within the reactor body. The third method of heat transfer, radiation, works best at very high temperatures as the rate of heat transfer varies as the fourth power of the absolute temperature. Unfortunately, with nano scale particles jamming the interior, there is no simple free path to the exterior shell and the radiation would have to be absorbed, reflected, and re-radiated along a very circuitous path to reach the exterior shell, unless very high frequency rays (X-rays) are produced that can penetrate the nickle powder and then finally be absorbed by the exterior shell. The longer wave radiation would probably be blocked by the very small interstices (nano scale) available. That is to say the openings are so small that only very small wavelengths would be able to pass through.

      The production of X-rays suggests a very energetic reaction that is likely to cause melting locally at their point of origin.

    • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

      I hate to say this but your explanations of how the e-cat works border on the fantastical with no basis in the reality of physics. As a result you annoyed people. Everyone needs to have a basic course in physics under their belt.

  • Mike Stevens

    CERN Colloquium: Overview of Theoretical and Experimental Progress in Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR); by Francesco Celani, Yogendra Srivastava
    http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/

  • GreenWin

    In Srivastava’s LENTransmutation presentation he questions the relative SILENCE of the science community to the 60 years and $$200B spent on hot fusion. With ZERO results. That’s ZERO, as in not one Watt of fusion energy produced. Slide number 3 details his attitude.

    “While strident criticism of low temperature fusion is legion among most physicists, the silence generated by the same physicists regarding hot fusion is positively deafening.” Dr. Srivastava

    His presentation goes on to describe Electro-Weak Fusion, Magnetic, and Piezo-electric Weak Fusion in some detail suggesting that the three can transmute elements – confirming nuclear fusion at low temps. Both the magnetic and piezo weak forces are interesting.

    Overall this presentation is revolutionary in that it suggests to CERN they can expect to see fusion at low temperatures in three weak modes. For people invested heavily in hot fusion study – this is tantamount to heresy. Which of course, LENR is.

  • Pingback: Discussion of Celani and Srivastava Presentation at CERN | ColdFusionBlog.net

  • dan

    The question here is – if Fleishmann / Pons is real – why did the scientific community roundly trash one of the greatest scientific discoveries in the modern era? MIT hot fusion scientists holding a wake before their own verification tests had been completed? If LENR is real – we will look back at that period in history and take a dim view on MIT and the people involved.

    • Robert Mockan

      Gene Mallove made that same observation in 1989. In fact he quit his job at MIT for that reason.
      http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/mitcfreport.pdf

      • NH

        Exactly right.

    • joe

      Dial back the irrational exuberance. Don’t confuse the claims of individuals with the endorsement of CERN proper. It is just a conference to exchange views on the subject, basically its open mic night at CERN.

      Just like Zawodny’s claims in the ‘nasa video’, its just his claims and views not “OMG nasa proves CF”

      Legitimacy cannot be gained through tenuous associations.

      Its the same old world we live in and it did not change due to this conference. This is part of real science, exchange views, tear it apart, build it up, test it from every angel. Such practices are anathema to classic CF researchers.

      • daniel maris

        Joe –

        You shouldn’t mislead people. NASA have been granted a LENR patent in the USA. It couldn’t be more official.

      • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

        Provide a basis for saying that the practices you mention “exchange views, tear it apart, build it up, test it from every angel.” are anathema, as you say, to CF researchers. Show me one paper that has critiqued a CF paper that tore it to pieces and did so on the basis of irreproducibility of the CF experimental results not just from a theoretical standpoint, by preaching from on high from the basis of authority.

      • GreenWin

        Get honest joe. NASA’s “Surface Plasmon…” video is the OFFICIAL opinion of NASA on the LANR effect. Zawodney’s name is on the NASA LANR patent. His backpedal occurred ONLY on his little homemade blog – to placate critics.

        BTW, there are now three separate NASA divisions conducting research: Marshall Space Flight Center, Langley Research, and Glenn Research Center. All are involved in LANR studies.

        The world HAS changed not because this CERN conference, or the NASA presentations tomorrow – because there is a gold ring worth some $$100T in converting the human population to non-polluting, non-radiative low cost energy. Not to mention enormous strategic power plays.

        Oversight of this type change is out of this world.

      • sapain

        nasa openly admitted they with held positive results back in 1989 or there abouts, they admitted to helping bury lenr.

      • Barry

        I think you’re downplaying the significance of the CERN lecture. So many of us feel LENR is too good to be true. After MIT teaching a class on LENR rather than trashing the technology, then ties with NASA saying there is something to all this, personally I was holding out for the lecture at CERN to see if they would say there is something a little too fuzzy about all this. Instead Mr. Celani confirmed my hopes of how viable the technology really is. (I’m sure Mr. Srivastave made a lot of good points but the math was far beyond me.)

        This was a tipping point. Here they were on a worldwide stage and this time no one threw stones at them. Unlike 1989 it’s now the skeptics who don’t sound very believable.

    • NH

      Because a MUCH LARGER bulk of manpower and resources through grants and disbursements could be perpetuated into long-term programs. This served as a diversion (just as so many programs serve as a diversion and obfuscation) in the name of science. “They” don’t want the answer, they want to produce a problem, then produce a patentable solution to that problem to perpetuate the programs, just like big medicine. This has been “The Game” of our age. They don’t want a cure, they want to provide the product to relieve the symptoms….

    • GreenWin

      Ignominiously dim.

    • sapain

      right up to the presidency of the usa. him and his energy buddies thought it was a bad idea to give independant power to the world.

  • Pingback: Discussion of Celani and Srivastava Presentation at CERN | E-Cat News Live Feed

  • Brad Arnold

    In the ebook “Secrets of E-Cat,” (Consulente Energia Publisher, 145 pages, 68 illustrations, Pdf format, 7 €, http://www.consulente-energia.com/cold-fusion-book-secrets-e-cat-by-mario-menichella-secret-ecat-andrea-rossi-focardi-energy-catalyzer.html ) author Mario Menichella says:

    “The probably better experimental work…carried out in Siena since the early Nineties, by a group of physicists composed by Sergio Focardi (University of Bologna), Francesco Piantelli (University of Siena), Roberto Habel (University of Cagliari), but it did not lead to a system capable of generating useful amount of excess energy for normal industrial or domestic applications. In Siena, in fact, the three scientists – using hydrogen and nickel as the two only “ingredients” of the reaction, plus an appropriate amount of heat supplied to the system – managed to get out a double thermal energy than the electrical energy provided in input.”

    In other words, anything below a COP of 2 is old news, and ought to be viewed as redundant.

    • Robert Mockan

      The author of the E-book is in error. The hydrogen and nickel reacted at elevated temperature, and the reaction was self sustaining. COP=infinite. The error is calculating COP using the power applied to the reactor container needed to overcome conduction losses (heat loss) from the reactor, as if that were the power input that made the nickel and hydrogen reacttion go. There are (2) main reasons no industrial process was developed.
      One is for the same problem Rossi is having. Excess heat destroys the nuclear active sites in the metal lattice unless they are stabilized against atom migration caused by the heat, that effectively “anneals” the metal removing the lattice defects where the reaction predomintely happens. The same problem happens making even ordinary hydrogenation catalysts used in the chemical industry, if they are acid etched prior to use. Early researchers tried increasing surface area by acid etching, but rather than the increased surface area resulting in more catalytic activity, all catalytic activity was killed, because the acid reacts at the more reactive lattice defect sites first, that are responsible for the hydrogenation catalytic activity in ordinary catlysts (not nuclear active) used in the chemical industry. When (I think it was FIAT corporation, but not certain) a company tried using the Piantelli process to make industrial heat source by enlarging the reactor and insulating it so it would not require a continuous electric input to maintain the operating temperature, the catalyst rods overheated and shut down. About that time Piantelli also moved on to other projects, and the funding for the cold fusion project using the Piantelli process was cut off. (At the time, that was early 90s, every body involved simply stopped talking about it, and I was never able to find out what exactly happened, or why, developing the process was discontinued).

    • dsm

      Also the book is outdated and in regard to Piantelli refers to work he did in the 1990s. But Piantelli carried on developing his design and that work is described in intricate detail in his 2008 patent where he describes the benefits of nano-particle powder as providing a better potential.

      Piantelli has filed 2 more patents that have not yet been published and these cover further advances and improvements. But, unlike Rossi who went public and announced his dramatic eCat gains, Piantelli has quietly continued with his work.

      Rossi’s announcement is somewhat like Salome announcing she will dance her famous dance of the 7 veils but having got everyone excited we discover she has 100s of veils.

      Rossi just keeps prancing around the stage chattering in JoNP language & each time he removes a veil it is clear there and many many more. His dance will just not climax.

      Ahh well

      DSM

  • IndiO_Prime

    Nuclear and Emerging Technologies for Space (2012):
    http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf

  • morse

    Can’t we sue the European Commission for spending billion of dollars on hot fusion with our tax money ?!

    • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

      Sue is not the right tool to use here. Suing is used between two private companies. I would look into criminal prosecution. If they know that LENR works and they continue to spend billions on green programs and dirty energy subsidies they are criminally negligent with taxpayers money.

      However, that said, I wouldn’t exactly call the CERN dog and pony show, followed by passing the hat for more funds for scientists on welfare, proof that anybody knows that it works.

    • GreenWin

      Rather than take the Kojak/CSI approach, a well publicized hearing calling authorities and politicians responsible for approvals on carpet – will work. We are going to have clear out a large segment of the science bureaucracy to clean up the mess made over the last 60 years.

      Without house cleaning and a few public “hangings” – the corruption of authorities will continue to fester.

    • The avenger

      Funding is always given to the existing networks/consortia that has created a perpetum mobilae based on that the previous useless project was called succesfull and used to motivate funding for the next project that again delivers nothing.

      In these projects everbody sits relaxed next to the water and nobody is allowed to catch the fish.

      Nothing nothing comes out of these projects, moreover its addictes also the good scientists to stop searching for working solutions.

    • sapain

      sue them, more like hang them for the yardarm.
      hot fusion spent around $40 bill in 57 yrs.

      a stealth bomber costs $512 million each.
      wall street executives got billions in bonuses last yr.

      hot fusion is a controlable energy source like fission, u will get billed for ever at their controlled price, making the rich, richer.

      if the government really cared about the well being of the populace, they would cancel 2 stealth bombers, use the billion and produce silicon purifying plants as well as solar cell manufacturing plants and put panels on every home.

      each government of each nation just has to spend a few billion on silicon purification and solar cell production to be totally electrified in a few yrs.

    • http://Ecatnews.net Александр

      Извините Морзе, у меня плохо с Английским, я отвечу на Русском ! Этот вопрос, который Вы задали, очень своевремен! Конечно в суд подать можно. Но дело не в этом. Ученые всего мира, перед тем как стать учёными, обязаны говорить правду о результатах своих экспериментов. Но со времени Дж. Бруно, которого Инквизиция сожгла на костре за его правду, учёные перестали говорить правду.
      Как я уже говорил раньше с 20 века, наука перестала быть только наукой. Это уже инструмент политики и секретности, как это было с урановым проектом. В дело познания природы явлений вмешались математики. Это началось с общей и специальной теорий относительности А.Эйнштейна. Дальше просто логическое заблуждение, ошибки с применением скорости света в теории тяготения, ошибки с применением сокращений Лоренца в теория х с двумя близнецами, ошибки с моделью атомного ядра ( мезонно-оболочечная или нейтронно-протонная). Цепь этих ошибок кто-то действительно направлял. Всё это привело к САМОЙ ГЛОБАЛЬНОЙ ОШИБКЕ – ОШИБКА ТЕРМОЯДЕРНОГО СИНТЕЗА,его вообще быть не может. Его нет и на Солнце. Во всех своих книгах я пишу об этом. Но, ВРЕМЯ ПРИШЛО, и сейчас уже СВОЕВРЕМЕННО хотя бы говорить об этом для того, чтобы ПРАВИТЕЛЬСТВА разных государств перестало финансировать эти программы по УПРАВЛЯЕМОМУ ЯДЕРНОМУ ГОРЯЧЕМУ СИНТЕЗУ.
      Причина этих ОШИБОК кроется в математиках, типа А.Эйнштейна, Л.Ландау (16 томов математики о физике, и не слова о механизмах природы явлений). Их просто нельзя даже близко подпускать к настоящим физикам, типа Э. Резерфорд, Э. Ферми. Выводы таких математиков сводятся к одной формуле Е=мс2, а что такое масса? До сих пор нет ответа на этот вопрос, как нет ответа на многие накопившиеся вопросы и в том числе LENR.
      Поэтому вся физическая наука разделилась на две взаимоисключающие науки – книжная на математическом жаргоне (но не языке математики И.Ньютона, а более изощрённом) и патентно-изобретательская. Именно первая привела ВСЕХ НАС в ЗАБЛУЖДЕНИЕ о термоядерном синтезе. Вторая, патентно-изобретательская, привела нас к LENR. Эта наука стоит ближе к истине познания природы, так как связана экспериментальными эффектами и поэтому ближе к изучаемым законам природы.
      Из-за того, что математики всё время твердили НАМ, что с электромагнитным излучением всё ясно – радиосвязь, телефоны, телевизоры и т.д. А какова структура фотона, структура ядра, структура шаровой молнии, спрайты, эльфы и т.д. Ни в одной книге в мире не приведено структуры вихревого поля фотона и других электромагнитных волн. Вот в чём кроется главный СЕКРЕТ познания природы. Дайте хотя бы один вариант структуры, последующие поколения будут его совершенствовать. Но ведь все научные школы мира для обсуждения своих эффектов в устройствах приглашают математиков. Они ничего не смыслят в физике, кроме как кварки, глюоны, бозоны Хиггса, очарованные частицы и т.д. Физиком надо родиться! И с детства жить и развиваться при решении вопросов –а как это устроено и как это работает. А математиков с их научными журналами даже близко нельзя подпускать к изучению фундаментальных вопросов. У них есть широкое поле деятельности – компьютеры, арифметика, расчёт орбит спутников и других расчётов по уже доказанным законам природы, типа законов И.Ньютона, закона Ома. А вот законы Максвелла придётся корректировать в связи с обнаруженными новыми спаренными частицами-магнитнымим монополями-ВИХРОНАМИ. Именно эти частицы и являются ответственными за LENR. Именно эти частицы в форме зарядовых кластеров обнаружил экспериментально Кенет Шоулдерс, именно эти частицы были зарегистрированы в работах Л.И.Уруцкоева (Курчатовский институт), в работах С.В. Адаменко (издательство Шпрингер, “Controlled Nucleosynthesis” 2007, 780 страниц) и многих других. Именно этим частицам посвящена и моя книга “Вихроны”, обясняющая с позиций НОВОЙ ФИЗИКИ LENR.
      Судить или не судить за Термоядерный синтез рассудит ВРЕМЯ. Ждать не долго. Мы с Вами уже точно дождёмся. Но потребовать обнаружения или ОТКАЗА от него БОЗОНОВ ХИГГСА это НАШЕ ПРАВО. Есть они или нет!Если нет,тогда вся СТАНДАРТНАЯ МОДЕЛЬ элементарных частиц должна быть утилизирована.
      С уважением д.ф-м.н. Шадрин А.А.

  • sapain

    interest the mentioning of piezoelectric effect. good way to stretch the lattice surface to allow the untake of protons and then reverse to compress the lattice surface. wonder if they achieve the high compression rate for reaction along with resonence to produce muons?

    • Robert Mockan

      Piantelli used a magnetic field in addition to pressure cycling of hydrogen to “ignite” is nickel and nickel alloy rods. Nickel is a magnetstrictive metal, meaning it changes dimensions when exposed to a magnetic field. It has been used to make transducers for ultrasonic drill presses, ultrasonic cleaners, and so on, for that reason. Not piezoelectric, that responds to an electric field, but magnetstrictive, that repsonds to a magnetic field. What you say about the lattice expansion and compression is exactly correct. Applying or removing the magnetic field with nickel above the curie temperature not only affected the lattice dimensions, but affected the uptake of hydrogen into the metal. These discoveries were made back in the early 90s.

      • sapain

        yes i c the principle of nickel magnetic oscillation, but with magnetic oscillation also come induction heating, affecting the lattice bonds and their compression abilitiy. heat weakening the bonds, more heat energy the great the bonds deteriorate and less compression ability.
        this is the problem with hot fusion, the ability to contain the compression field.

        but what if zicronium is added to palladium in a certain manner so that heat energy is replaced by point of vertual velocity and pin point high compression.
        zicronium being a diaelectric can hold a very high static charge, basically giving a high negative electrostatic field which would help lower or counter the coulomb barrier with no heat. the lattice of palladium would be distorted on a curved plane vs a linear plane. fulcum effect.
        with high flex speed, it maybe possible to convert the protons to muon by impact, aiding the the weakening of the coulomb barrier for proton tunneling and increasing the rate of probable reaction.
        as well as acting as a two way pump at the point of the flex curve.
        both palladium and zirconium can handle high heat as well as conductance of heat energy. better bond stability at higher temps.

        • Robert Mockan

          I see where you are going with your comment. A test for valid reasoning consistent with physics is to model a problem under study by putting numbers to the different variables of the model, and solving equations that describe what happens when you “run” the model. The answers you get help determine if the reasoning process is logical, and physically possible within the constraints of known science. I can see problems with modeling from your verbal description. For example quantifying the concept of the “compression field”. What you are describing sounds functionally equivalent to atomic hydrogen ions trapped within a potential well caused by electrostatic field boundaries of adjacent atom charge.
          But “compression field” has no direct equivalent in the physics.
          (A side note is that zirconium is the metal, zirconium oxide the dielectric). Lattice distortion happens for many reasons, but a “high flex speed” has no direct equivalent in metallurgy. The energy required for proton conversion to a muon would seem to exceed what can be imparted by non-relativistic velocities, much beyond any impact by energetically conceivable flex speeds. I see a few other problems with modeling the process as you describe. You might try modeling parts of the process you describe, and see where the numbers take you.

          • sapain

            cosmic impact of protons with the earth`s atmosphere leads to creation of muons.
            liquid or gas pressure will enable proton transfer into the lattice, unless equalirium is 0 or -.
            i am basically suggesting that by using electrostatic force of the piezomaterial to focus compression force to the trapped protons.
            the effect of adding (creating) muon is to substantually weaken the coulomb barrier by the enhanced negative field of the muon. so if the speed of compression (flex), matched to nano distance to impact,may create muons inside the area of effect.
            a small force at a distance applied by way of a fulcum can greatly magnify the pressure effect.
            also, with the increased negative electrostatic field, it may distort the surface positive guass field of the proton/s enough to raise the probabilty rate for tunneling.
            1-appied electostatic stretches the lattice surface on a curved plain, alowing uptake of protons. with an increase distance between the atoms of the lattice, more protons can be introduced into the lattice. also this force is stored.
            2-applied reverse field, to warp lattice in the opposite direction, pinch. inverse curve. also releasing stored energy from 1.
            3- if 2 can reach cosmic, spontanous velocity, possible muon creation, by oscilation frequency and resonience of 1 and 2.
            4-with creation of muons and added (synconized) neg. electostatic field to weaken the coulomb barrier further, the pinch effect may be strong enough to push a protons past the coulomb barrier field zone to allow fusion. by way of tunneling.

          • Robert Mockan

            > sapain

            You can find out if the processes you are saying may happen are physically possible by making a model (even if just a diagram), showing the variables, then apply numbers to the variables (value and dimension. Use equations from a physics text book to calculate answers using the variables. The most difficult part is taking a word problem (that is what you have) and describing it mathematically. The math part is easy, because it is rule based and all you need do is follow the rules to solve equations. It is making the model from the verbal description you need to work on. Without that, all any body can say about what you suggest may happen, if this, or if that, remains just speculation. I see where you are going with your comments, but applying some basic physical chemistry and nuclear physics concepts leads me to believe your speculations need to be modified before they can be modeled for analysis. As the originator of the speculations, you are the person who needs to do that.

          • sapain

            yes i agree, but i am throwing a possible concept into the wind, maybe others more qualified than i, may or may not think about it.
            i may not be able to do the investigation tomorrow and it is more important to pass the thought, to be investigate whether it`s right or wrong.

    • Robert Mockan

      Defkalion may be using the magnetstrictive effect with their nickel catalyst, and pressure cycling, to impose periodic load and unload cycling of atomic hydrogen (from the decomposition of gaseous metal hydrids about the operating temperature of their reactor)into the nickel (or alloy) catalyst. This would be completely consistent with the discoveries made by Piantelli. Heat generation typically seems associated with diffusion into, and out of, the interstitial lattice structure of properly sized nano-particles. This may explain how Defkalion is operating at higher temperature and higher COP than the Rossi E-Cat. The other way to increase COP has been with EM (RF) of a wavelength corresponding to the Debye lattice size, and atomic hydrogen in the d-orbital conduction band.

      What I found interesting about the lecture is that regardless of the hypothesis applied to explain the energy release (what atomic or nuclear pathway), the conditions needed for the energy release do not rule out any of the prominent hypothesis being considered. Possibly greater COP and temperature can be obtained by experimentation even without an accepted theory.
      That appears to be the approach Rossi took. Now if he can only market something… anything… to the general public!

  • Stephen

    Can anybody tell the reaction of the people present to the talk and/or say anything about the audience? Questions? Comments?

    • sapain

      noticed a few individuals at the end going to have one on one converstation.
      one asked why no mention of experimental failures and pushed the topic, only to get the reply that they didn`t do the experiments properly. attack like F&P got.
      few other showed curiousity.
      hard to estimated the size of the crowd, i`d say around 20-30.
      u have to remember, lenr is a hugh threat to hot fusion, carbon based fuels, bankers, controlled utilities, and with transmutation, commodity markets.
      behind the curtain, there r people working on the transmutations angle, platinium at $1700 per oz, imagine the first person to use lenr to secretly produce a lb of platinium per day in the middle of ny city.

  • sapain

    here`s a comparision for lern development.
    -1839, photovoltaic effect was first recognized.
    -1883, first cell built, 1% effeciency.
    -1905, albert explained photoelectric effect.
    -1946, first modern junction semiconductor solar cell
    -1954, modern pv cell, $250/watt.
    -1971, $100/watt.
    -1973, exxon labs got involved, produced panels at $10/watt and sold at $20/watt.
    -2012, $1/watt to produce, wholesale $2/watt.
    -60 GW/yr production levels.
    advancements in light absorbing dyes will lower the cost even more.
    170 years for solar.

    1989 nanofusion recognized.
    how long will it take. 23 yrs and counting.

    • Dennis Drumheller

      IMO… back then oil and electricity were inexpensive. Infrastructures and technology were still evolving, if not just being discovered. The environment was of little concern.

      Communication was a bit limited. Times were different… a bit slower.

      Now, oil and electricity are expensive (out of control) and the environment is a big concern.

      Communications are now awesome allowing immediate access and exchange to information and resources.

      Solutions will come faster than we can imagine.

      Necessity is STILL the Mother of Invention.

    • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Steve Robb

      The useful lifespan of a solar collector pannel is at best fifty years.

      • sapain

        solar panels lose effeciency by the distortion of the anti-reflective coating causing higher reflection rate. alls that is needed is a recoat every 30yrs at the cost of a few cents, silicon cells themselves do not deteriorate.
        light energy will never break the silicon or dopant bonds in the lattice structure of the solar cell.
        silicon, is not like glass that it is vicuious and gravity will distort it over time. even so, if damaged by exterior forces silicon can be remelted and reformed for next to nothing. the major cost of a solar cell is get sio2 and purifying it to si. so the useful life span of solar cell is infinite.
        coal, oil and nuclear r terrified of it.
        since the chinese took over the market and pushed it, solar is grid parity with nuclear and fast approaching coal, i say 3 yrs.
        silicon is going to be the death of carbon based fuels and even nuclear.
        once a person buys solar, they and their children and their children r energy independant. oil,gas,coal and nuclear make no more profits.
        in a few weeks, i will have a solar powered trike with a 300km daily range using 0 oil or gas.

        • Lu

          sapain,

          I think the degradation is not coating related. It has more to do with UV related degradation of the silicon itself. I don’t think it can be restored nor recycled as you say. I’ve never heard of such things. You do have to clean them regularly :)

          See http://www.docstoc.com/docs/55853213/Degradation-Analysis-of-Weathered-Crystalline-Silicon-PV-Modules

          Anyway PV solar degrades to 80% after 20-25 years. By then more efficient and cheaper panels will be available.

          Do you sell solar? You know they don’t work very well in the dark.

          • daniel maris

            They’re working on that – one idea is to absorb on the reverse infrared radiation emitted by the Earth.

          • Ged

            If full direct sunlight (the ENTIRE spectrum) is at the absolute maximum less than 1 kw/m^2, downward longwave IR (the greenhouse effect) is not going to provide enough energy to run a light bulb. That’s like saying you’ll use solar panels to power off of body heat–more energy there as the IR wavelength is shorter (more energetic).

          • sapain

            no, i don`t sell solar, i just love the free non polluting energy i get from it. income tax paid for it.

            coal plants don`t work with out coal. nuclear plants don`t work without fission material, and when they do, they polluted our home. the sun will last 65 billion yrs. ur coal,gas and nuclear won`t.
            i store energy using battery and hydrogen. i also have a small windmill, there r winds at night.
            when a situation arrives of heavy cloud and no wind for extended periods of time (rare), i simply cut back on power consumption.
            with the cheap price of solar, i`m going to upgrade my system. $1600 and i add another 600watts, even on a cloudy day u produce usable energy.
            i consider coal, gas and nuclear as blood money, a quick easy profit at the expense of others.
            energy dealers hate solar, they won`t be able to a profit once everyone is solarized.
            what is the cost of an oil platform. that amount of money can create 100 solar cell manufaturing plants that produce 20MW/yr each. BP spent billions on the gulf clean up, that one platform with the cost of construction and distruction could have financied a 1000 solar cell plants. what about the other 200 platforms.
            the rate of usa solar expansion was 31% last yr. the world is going alternate, coal, nuclear and oil will b a thing of the past, the sooner the better.
            yes, the degradation is coating related. average light fall on the silicon wafers is not strong enough to break the silicon and dopant lattice bonds.

            how much do coal, gas, oil and nuclear power systens degrade in 25-30 yrs. and what enviroment effects do they have and what is the amount of enviromental degradation.

            japan-area, 1200km2 usless for a 1000 yrs, cost of clean up, 100 of billions.
            russia-even grater than japan.
            BP gulf spill-shut down of the atlantic current, killed millions of living creatures, dispursions toxicified the gulf and atlantic for many yrs to come. distroyed alot of peoples lives.
            war for oil-distroyed whole soveriegn economies, killed millions of people and living creatures. explosives added mega amounts of chemicals to the enviroment, depleted uranium has radiated large areas.
            u r worried that solar cells lose 10% effeciency in 25 yrs and don`t work at night.
            u have a serious moral problem.

  • http://Www.choicedowsing.com Kwhilborn

    My favorite aspect of this presentation was that two major contributors to this research are Japanese car companies. Mitsubishi slide shows a LENR effect noted and then replicated by Mitsubishi competitor Toyota. A rival car company replicated the Mitsubishi experent using their own equipment and materials. That is amazing.

    I knew Japan was at the front of this research but had no idea the scientists I had been reading of worked in the automotive industry.

    Very interesting. Perhaps buying a car with zero emissions and a lifetime worth of fuel built right in may be a possibility sooner than we thought.

    If I were Andrea Rossi and my claims were true I would be concerned about a billion dollar research facility blowing my ancient ecat device into history before I made my first dime.

    Good presentation.

    • redflatliner

      Wether Toyota nor Mitshubishi are just automotive companies.
      They are producing from chemicals to pharma machines roboters nuclear plants and yes also cars…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Group
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi

      so its clear why they do this research…but it has nothing to dos with cars.

    • Jason

      Mitsubishi Heavey Industries makes everything from semiconductors to cars, buldozers, ships and airplanes, etc.

      • MacGlurg

        Dont forget they also make liquid fluoride thorium reactor equip’ment as well. That is the future of clean energy for the human race.

  • QC-JYM

    What strike me most is the huge difference between Rossi’s and Defk’s claim compare to the mainstream results. You have to agree that 2500% compare to 200% is quite a step!

    Otherwise, great conference!

    jym

    • Warthog

      You prehaps missed Celani’s own result…..1800 watts/gram of Nickel. And there are others in that same ball-park (some of which will be presented at the NASA conference in Texas tomorrow).

      • Mike Stevens

        What This Texas conference … Some of which will be presented at the NASA conference in Texas tomorrow !

        • Warthog

          NASA “Emerging Technologies for Space” conference to be held at “The Woodlands” in Texas on March 23. George Miley will be there, and I believe some others who have worked on CF in NASA. I’m not sure of the full agenda. I don’t think that one will be webcast.

          • sapain

            george is making the rounds, high level promotion going on for lenr.

  • MajorMax

    F*ck!This is amazing!

    LENR is real. Great news!

    • Ged

      And there’s multiple ways to do it! But with some consistent features. Nano particles (surface area) seems to be the key. But is it Deuterium or Hydrogen that’s the best gas?

      • http://Www.choicedowsing.com Kwhilborn

        Deuterium is a type of hydrogen. Heavy hydrogen is a better name for it as it contains a nucleus, unlike it’s brother.

        Andrea Rossi and others are claiming they get LENR from normal (not heavy) hydrogen.

        I hope that makes it clearer.

        • Ged

          Oh, I know exactly what deuterium is (proton and neutron, versus hydrogen’s single proton core). My laboratory uses deuterium due to its invisibility to NMR (it has a 0 spin, versus hydrogen’s nuclear spin of 1/2) all the time for certain experiments and general water signal suppression. Tritium is the radioactive version of hydrogen with two neutrons and a proton, and gives off a weak alpha particle emission. -What- deuterium is was not what I was talking about.

          If you look at the experimental results from the massive list of experiments and conditions performed, you see a difference between hydrogen and deuterium. Deuterium is far rarer (heavy water) than hydrogen, and so would not be nearly as cheap to produce.

          Defkalion and Rossi are using hydrogen and saying that’s the most efficient way to go. I am wondering which way will prove to produce the most power, deuterium (which is used in hot fusion pathways) or hydrogen? The thing is, deuterium and hydrogen should have different nuclear reactions.

          I suppose there’s no way to tell completely yet, but looking at the experiments done can give a hint for anyone able to fully digest them.

          • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

            oops.. I thought you didn’t understand.

            I think more research/understanding is required to know what is most efficient.

            More research has been done using deuterium. Andrea Rossi version of LENR is a new brand. Let’s hope this conference allows greater acceptance and research grants.

            P.S. Was that Dick Smith in the corner of the conference with the Dunce cap on?

          • http://radiosciencenews.org Richard Pollack

            Wasn’t there some series of slides that showed experiment using hydrogen and deuterium together, with some interesting results? I’m looking forward to going through the slides that were presented. Some data with numbers arching up for hydrogen, and down for deuterium or something like that.

          • GreenWin

            Ged, my understanding of Rossi/Defkalion Mills, and others is plain H2 is catalyzed into atomic H1, during the process. Not sure at what point that occurs in Rossi’s reactor. Some speculate it is the movement from H2 to H1 and back that provides SOME energy release.

          • Petrol

            Tritium is a beta emitter. Deuterium has a nuclear spin of 1.

          • Ged

            You’re right Petrol, I was writing that hastily. Thanks for the corrections.

            GreenWin: Conservation of energy disagrees. If you take energy to split a molecule, the same amount of energy would be released to refuse the molecule (or vice versa). This is why reversible reactions have an equilibrium where the reaction rapidly oscillates between reactants and products. You can never get energy out of H2 -> 2H1 -> H2.

            The “secret catalysts” used may well be for splitting H2 (which shouldn’t be that reactive), into H1 (which would be the reactive form). Platinum for instance is a catalyst that does that.

        • sven

          I’m pretty sure that Celani switched during the presentation to a different set of slides that is not in the published ones. There he had this graph showing the vanishing of the D and buildup of the H. Did anyone get what he was demonstrating there?

      • sven

        As I understood it, it seems that deuterium is used as a neutron carrier, and somehow they manage to get it to let the neutron free, the neutrons drift into the Nickel (or the heavier atoms) where they enlarge the core until a transmutation takes place and energy gets released. Didn’t Celani say at some point that there was this experiment where they started with a mixture of H and D and at the end of the process, all the D vanished but the H actually built up, something that was a strong evidence of LENR process? I can’t find this in the slides however now that I look through them. If that’s the case it seems that H is not playing any role in the process and that D is only their for the neutron. So are Rossi and Defkalion maybe using D in their process as well, relying on the 0.015% ratio in natural hydrogen gas? Does this make sense or am I missing something?

        • Ged

          Some theories suggest the proton fuses with nickle to make copper. In that case, deuterium would either go off on a different pathway, not work, or create different copper isotope ratios. Nuclear physics is fun, but some seriously advanced stuff.

        • sapain

          coulomb barrier for deutrium is alot lower than the plain hydrogen atom. tritium`s coulomb barrier is less than deutrium.
          rate of probable reaction is greater for matter with a weaker coulomb barrier.
          the use of muons is to help weaken the field strenght of the coulomb barrier and allow protons to break the fields or get into range for acceptance.
          oscillation is to increase energy to supply the push into the weaken coulomb barrier.
          also i believe that neutron conversion into protons inside the coulomb barrier is being pursued.

  • Thomas

    slides are here

    • Thomas
      • Ged

        Those slides are absolutely remarkable! Especially Dr. Celani’s. I had no idea so many experiments by different groups had been done showing LENR. And the transmutation of Cs to Pd is especially interesting. LENR could be used for nanoscale production of new atomic materials? That alone has immense applications in the manufacturing realm.

        These dual presentations blew me away. No doubt LENR is a real phenomenon. All that’s left is how to optimize and upscale it for energy production, and apply it in other ingenious ways.

        • Warthog

          If you really want a comprehensive overview, get Ed Storm’s book “Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction: A Comprehensive Compilation of Evidence and Explanations about Cold Fusion”.

          NOT cheap ($71.25 at Amazon), but that is seventy bucks I’m glad to have spent. You can probably get access to it free (or much cheaper) by Interlibrary Loan through you local public library.

        • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

          Ged, “All that’s left is how to optimize and upscale it for energy production, and apply it in other ingenious ways.”

          O, by no means! The biggest task that remains is to get the scientific community to eat its crow, declare that they have been wrong and participants in evil. Only then will money flow so that the research can be done.

          However, hopefully Rossi and Defkalion have already made the research breakthroughs necessary to produce commercial grade products. If this is the case, I suspect that most in the scientific world will abandon their LENR-denial when they buy a device at Home Depot.

      • daniel maris

        Is there anywhere I can watch the presentation – thanks for the slides.

        • atanguy

          +1