Rossi in Pursuit of Tesla’s Dream: Infinite Energy

It seems that since Andrea Rossi has been working with the Siemans turbine that has allowed efficient production of electricity at low steam temperatures, he feels he is in a position to take the E-Cat to the ultimate level — the production of unlimited electrical energy.

Rossi has said that they are now able to get a stable steam temperature of 260 C from the 1 MW plant, and when asked by a reader whether he will try to raise this temperature he responded that it was “not a priority”. So he seems to be satisfied that he has enough heat to work with.

Asked what the next milestone for the E-Cat was, Rossi replied “self sustained using self produced electricity = infinite energy: the dream of Tesla (and mine)”.

While it sounds like this milestone will be technically feasible, it will likely take a lot of time to achieve. To get 15 MW of electrical power (Rossi’s stated goal) he said he will need to build 45 1 MW plants. The reactors for these plants will be different from the 10 kW domestic units that are to be mass produced, so there will be lots of time, engineering and money to get this done. Rossi says a 45 MW plant would weigh 200 tonnes!

We’ll have to wait and see what plans are in place to build this unit — it will be huge undertaking, but if Rossi can make such a plant it will be a technological marvel — a self sustaining power plant running on small amounts of nickel and hydrogen with the ability to power a small community would certainly be a breakthrough that would garner lots of attention. And if that plant could be built and it worked — what would be next?

  • John

    Technically, it’s not infinite as the e-cats need to refueled with fresh nickel powder periodically.

  • Brad Arnold

    Power density of typical engine types
    combustion gas turbine 2.9 kg/kw
    medium speed diesel 10 kg/kw
    nuclear gas turbine (including shielding) 15 kg/kw
    nuclear steam plant (including shielding) 54 kg/kw
    Rossi LENR generator 4 kg/kw

    Any questions?

  • Roger Bird

    Wake me when there is real news.

    • daniel maris

      I want to be cyrogenically frozen and wake up to a world of cheap, clean energy. LOL

      • dragon

        I’m afraid you will wake up in a world of “Soilent Green is People!” 🙁

      • Robert Mockan

        Why would they wake you?

        • sparks

          Good point. The meat is more tender if the livestock is not under duress immediately prior to “processing” (adrenaline causes muscles to tense up…).

          Now that I’ve taken the thread to its inevitable macabre level, I’ll graciously bow out (hee hee) …

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  • http://www.rentezi.com Conrad Goodger

    Re: “To get 15 MW of electrical power (Rossi’s stated goal) he said he will need to build 45 1 MW plants.”

    Some one explain to me why 45 times 1MW plants = one 15MW plant.

    Should this not be 15 times 1MW plants to get one 15MW plant??

    Im a bit confused…

    • Geoff

      15MW is pertaining to heat. To convert heat energy to electrical there is approx 33% efficiency therefore to draw out 45MW you need 15/.33 = approx 45MW.

      • Geoff

        Should also read with 45MW of heat energy this equates to 45 x 33% = approx 15MW electrical energy.

  • X-prize

    I was browsing the web for any daily news of Andrea Rossi and his e-Cat when I stumbled across this!

    **************************************
    Investigation of Andrea Rossi and his e-Cat by the Florida Bureau of Radiation Control
    Posted on March 10, 2012

    You must click on the March tab under Archives to read all 34 pages of this report. This is the final report of the investigation by the Florida Bureau of Radiation Control, concerning Andrea Rossi and his non-existent e-Cat factory.

    http://ecatdoteudotcom.wordpress.com/

    **************************************
    **************************************

    • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

      Strange complaint there is more radiation from granite countertops.

    • Marius

      This guy Gary Wright is really hurting over Rossi’s achievement.

    • Karl

      This is very interesting information that additionally indicates that a real thing is going on. It also gives a first indication that any attempts to prohibit manufacturing of the e-cat will fail. Thus, even if it there should be any (initial) obstacles to actually run the e-cat in one country another country may well welcome it.

    • sapain

      someone is hunting for rossi`s manufacturing plant and is trying to us the state of florida to do the hunting.

    • Robert Mockan

      Rossi probably had a siezure when he saw that posted. Gives coorporate office address, his cell phone numbers, the fact he only has 50% interest in the company (not a controlling interest, that would be 51%). That means he can be bought out, if he shows a profitable business, or removed from executive position, if he does not. Any half wit investigator can follow Rossi at any time to find out where the manufacturing plant is. Eventually he must go there.

      • Marius

        Seems to be his wife with the other 50%.

    • sparks

      So according to the investigative documents there is no e-cat factory in the US. The final disposition document says all manufacturing is overseas. Doesn’t that contradict what Rossi has been saying? Hasn’t Rossi been saying they are building a factory in the US, and making “excellent progress” on it?

      This story is starting to unravel at a faster clip!

  • http://globalenergysys.net David

    My dear friends a few people ask because they were interested in seeing what type a work area we have so we put some photos up for you to see. We will not show any of our work because its proprietary to our company and we consider it top secret. I’m also not making a plug for our company.
    We only licensed to a large scale manufactures only.

    David Farnsworth
    Warmest regards to all.

  • Robert Mockan

    Rossi may be something of a showboat. If his goal is to close the loop powering a reactor with electricity made form the thermal power out, with a little left over, he can do that with any conversion efficiency over 16 percent, given COP=6. A uniflow steam engine with low pressure steam can do 20 percent conversion. For a one knock off design it would be MUCH cheaper than using a Siemens turbine, because Rossi could use a one MW reactor, instead of 50 of them. I posted my calculation a few days ago, copied here, for a 15 MW system using a 30 percent turbine with COP=6.

    ——————————–

    Given:

    Pie=(Poe+Pie)/(COPxEff)
    Pout=COPxPie
    Poet=EffxPout

    where Pie is electrical power to reactor
    Poe is useful electric power out
    COP is gain
    Eff is conversion efficiency
    Pout is total thermal power out
    Pout is also Poet/Eff
    Poet is total electrical power out
    Poet is also Poe + Pie

    Given Poet=15 MW (and COP=6, Eff=.30),
    then Pout=15 MW/.30 = 50 MW (thermal)

    But Pout also equals COPxPie, so
    Pie=Pout/COP then
    Pie=50 MW/6 = 8.33 MW (electrical input to reactor)

    Thus the input to the reactor with a 15 MW total electrical output is going to be 8.33 MW, leaving only 6.67 MW of useful electrical power out for other uses.

    ———————————–

    But look what happens if he would simply use one of his one MW reactors and a uniflow steam engine at 20 percent conversion. The same equations are applied.

    Given:

    Pie=(Poe+Pie)/(COPxEff)
    Pout=COPxPie
    Poet=EffxPout

    where:
    Pie is electrical power to reactor
    Poe is useful electric power out
    COP is gain = 6
    Eff is conversion efficiency = .20
    Pout is total thermal power out = 1 MW
    Poet is total electrical power out
    Pout is also Poet/Eff
    Poet is also Poe + Pie

    thus

    Pout= COPxPie
    Pie=Pout/COP
    =1 MW/6
    =.167 MW

    and

    Poet=EffxPout
    =.20x 1MW
    =.20 MW
    so

    Poe=Poet-Pie
    =.200-.167
    =.033 MW

    Even with the lower conversion efficiency the 1 MW thermal power reactor can still power itself (closing the loop)using .167 MW, and provide .033 MW, or 33 KW, of electricity for other uses.

    Proof of concept is just closing the loop. Building a 15 MW electrical output system with COP=6 has no commercial prospects, since every slight increase in COP and steam temperature by competitors would render previous designs obsolete.

    If Rossi wants to follow in Tesla footsteps, he should remember that Tesla ended up broke when he died.

  • http://nuvolesenzafiltro.blogspot.com andrea b

    Hi, a little poll: who in this forum have a MSc related to engineering? Just curious…

    • Alain

      me, this is why i’m convinced by colleagues at Defkalion. I’ve analyzed their answer which show good understanding, industrial approach, global design. I’ve also understood that this technology is simple… that they used a simple approach, from the data around (the Ni+H researchers, widom-larsen analyze, even if they disagree- I support them less on theory since it is not their job, and I suspect even they give fuzzy data to fog the competitors).

      and that Rossi missed the exam, for good reasons.

      anyway the technology is so simple, once you know the keys (that are public now), that even rossi can make something that work for some time.

  • Robert Mockan

    200 tons? He is including heat exchangers, turbines, generators, and a land based plant. Probably with a safety factor of a least 3 for all pressure ratings.
    It would not be difficult to get to 200 tons. That mass would go down fast with higher COP. Raise the COP to 20 and a marine application with plenty of cooling water for the same output but direct shaft horsepower instead of electric power could probably be done for 20 tons.

  • Bruno

    “It seems, it seems, it seems”.It doesn’t seem like anything other than we still have no proof that the ecat works. Rossi can talk all he wants about robotized factories cranking out a million home ecats a year, or 15 MW electrical generating units or GW units for that matter. It means NOTHING without proof. NOTHING. Where’s the beef? Time to put some beef on that hamburger patty.

  • Bruno

    It doesn’t seem like anything other than we still have no proof that the ecat works. Rossi can talk all he wants about robotized factories cranking out a million home ecats a year, or 15 MW electrical generating units or GW units for that matter. It means NOTHING. Where’s the beef? Time to put some beef on that hamburger patty.

    • http://www.rentezi.com Conrad Goodger

      Rome wasn’t built in a day..

      I congratdulate Rossi for making so much progress so fast dispite the enormus trials some sceptics and thieves have given him so far.

  • Robert Black

    I think to Tesla (who built a tower on Long Island to send and arc of electricity to Africa) fission reactors would have met the requirements of “endless energy.”

  • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

    > And if that plant could be built and it worked — what would be next?

    Next? Plan and promise and build a bigger plant so the plant that was just built and worked just fine wasn’t shown or released to the public.

    Keep the show going Rossi!!!

  • John

    “While it sounds like this milestone will be technically feasible”

    One little thing is missing. The proof that LENR is actually true. We haven’t seen that yet. We may never, so don’t get too excited yet.

  • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

    I must admit, I don’t understand Rossi in this undertaking. There are much smaller steam engines on the market. Further, if Rossi took one of the 10kw units and placed it in the hands of a competent and respected institution, I suspect it wouldn’t be long for the scientific world to notice the thing.

    Further, I don’t understand why the last Defkalion test, the one for the Greek government, put a halt to all real info out of Defkalion. It suits their business model to solidly prove their technology.

    • Omega Z

      Bruce

      The First to witness a Defkalion test was a GOVERNMENT Entity. All information Stops. What do you think.

      Maybe Rossi’s course is justified.

      • Stanny Demesmaker

        Evidence that there is really testing going on Defkalion(besides the greek goverment):

        Mark Dansie on the SmartScarecrowshow says that he known people who are going to participate in the tests:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn19HbFmTRk

        Go to 01:11:28 to hear the fragment

        It’s logical that they first let all the testgroups do their testing in all peace before communicating to the world

      • Paul Richards

        Omega Z – agreed government want to keep the status quo. We need a change in approach to the size of power grids. Transformers and length of transmission have always been wasteful, easily disguised during the cheap energy era.

        The history of supplying energy is littered with localised small energy units being pushed aside with the argument economies of scale. Localised efficient small communities are threatening and not wanted by government and their ‘friends with benefits’, corporate power industries driven purely by profit.

        The pressure is on now, if the large units get a foothold and new clients in turn demand small units are priced out of the market.

    • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

      These guys are all about spin, based on real facts or not. The thing that shut Defkalion down is not a test that failed. I suspect it’s probably a government official that came to visit with his hand out asking for bribe money. They’re an easy target. Radiation, nickel, etc. Big big safety concern if the right palms aren’t greased.

      • Roger Bird

        Charles Ponzi, I have to agree with you. Many in OUR government are crooks. I guarantee that the Greek government is much worse.

    • http://www.rentezi.com Conrad Goodger

      Re: “To get 15 MW of electrical power (Rossi’s stated goal) he said he will need to build 45 1 MW plants.”

      Some one explain to me why 45 times 1MW plants = one 15MW plant.

      Should this not be 15 times 1MW plants to get one 15MW plant??

      Im a bit confused…

  • Petrol

    I don’t understand Rossi’s size argument. From the photos of his shipping container surface area for actual nuclear reactions seem extraordinarily small compared to supporting fiberglass, “lead”, piping, electronics…etc.

    You don’t need a physically bigger space you just need to put a tiny bit of thought into optimizing surface area dedicated to nuclear reactions.

  • Gary Tripp

    Rossi should be considering a binary power system that use refrigerant as a working fluid. The heat energy is transferred to a working fluid like Pentafluoropropane, which boils at 15° C. The working fluid is then expanded through the turbine and then cooled and reused.

    Modular units are available from Siemans or other manufactures

    • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

      Absolutely correct. Why not solve the problem the best way first.

      Any way power generator configurations are not such a big deal.

      What is a big deal is getting smaller units on the market.

  • RobertM

    rossi is going to fix the world and provide clean cheap energy for the world. it might take another 5 years from today though.

    good news, 5 years from today there will be a hope!

  • Stephen

    The real wonder is how this guy is able to keep the story going for so long without providing any true evidence of what he is promising… i.e. a lot of great stuff, but always tomorrow.

    • Michelangelo

      once theer was a mall and on door was a sign wit ha written “TODAY IS TO PAY, TOMORROW NO!”. 🙂 (Pardon, i don’t speak english)

    • Frank

      The bloggers do their best to keep the pot boiling ….
      (e.g repeat and speculate about every bit of ‘Rossi says’…)

  • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    In order to forfill Telsa’s dream we will need the
    small and portable units and get off of the grid for independence and security.

    It will be good to see cold fusion in automobiles and common machinery and devices.

    • daniel maris

      It can’t be infinite energy as it requires a fuel rod, but it’s the next best thing, for sure.

      People should realise that unlimited does not in any case = free. There are loads of costs from offices,administration, rents, salaries, materials, transport maintenance and so on.

      But what is on offer here I think is cheap,clean, safe electricity at probably half the price of the cheapest current sources – maybe somewhere around 2 cents a KwH.

      • Omega Z

        daniel

        Your right. It’s not infinite energy.
        It’s technically Infinite COP, Just technically?
        It’s a head scratcher as it’s true but not true at the same time. Guess it depends on ones point of view.

        People confuse energy/COP a lot on these posts.

      • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

        Still making many times more profit at 2 cents per KWh than the lowest cost today.

        At the capital cost Rossi is quoting (and the price expected to come down) I think less than 1 cent a KWh.

        Localized service and independent residential don’t require much infrastucture or administration.

        Distribution infrastructure is currently 1% to 2% at most of capital cost.

    • bindlepete

      Check out George Miley’s so called Battery with 1/2 hp per KG.

      Make tis with Ni/H2 and we are off to the races.

  • clovis

    The man himself is a marvel,
    Go Mr.Rossie, you got the hammer don’t abuse it,
    use to for the good of humanity.
    Shoot another bolt of you new fire, and exclaim free energy for everyone, and then join your other hero friends,LIKE nikloa Telsa, AND GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS A GIANT, AMOUNG SUPER HERO’S. —SMILE

  • sapain

    won`t be able to afford a 45 MW plant, but in a few more yrs silicon energy will b $2.00/watt for the average person and silicon is already telsa`s dream.
    at $2.00/watt everyone can produce all the hydrogen they will need to supply their energy needs.
    i`ll stick with silicon until someone raises the cop of lenr and creates a mobile energy system.

    • Rui

      @sapain,
      Could you posy Some link to what you are talking about?
      Am I correct to assume you mean hydrogen creation through some process involving silicon?
      É

    • Ged

      This sounds very interesting, I’d love to see more info.

      Though, are you sure about those dollar per watt numbers? At $2/watt that means it would take 2 million dollars to produce a megawatt.

      • sapain

        go to wikipedia, they have new up dates for pv solar.
        today a 80w panel costs $350, that`s $4.37/watt, panel life span 50-?yrs.
        at $2.00 watt, that`s $160/80w panel.
        these prices r retail, wholes sale bulk r alot cheaper, solar farms r buying at $1-$2 per watt.
        china annouced it`s dropping their prices this yr, 80w panel will hit $300, maybe lower.
        home system-1000w at $2/watt=$2000+ (a few dollars for inverters and storage) that produces varying amounts dependant on weather but will produce for 50-?yrs.
        a 1000w system on a tracker will give about 8kwhr per day average. roof mount about 4.5kwhr aver.
        patents for silicon purification and solar cell production r now void and competetion is expanding. 2009-12.3 GW, 2010-24GW production, 2011-24GW slow down fron western finacial situation.
        western economies r having a hard time competeing with asia, especially china.
        24GW yrly production, is pretty good, but wait till it reaches 100-200
        GW/yr. estimates for 2030 is 1.2TW/yr yrly production.
        at $2,00/watt, i`ll b a happy camper even though i paid $10/watt 8 yrs ago.

    • Stephen

      Silicon energy = solar panels… I think

      • sapain

        yes

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  • Filip

    parole, parole, parole…

    • Filip

      he was always claming infinite energy?????? and now al of a sudden he is in pursuit????????WTF

      • Ged

        The difference is heat versus electricity.

  • Camilo

    I often wonder how much this is really under control of Rossi since he chose to collaborate with a “unnamed military institution”.

    • Ged

      And now has his company under control by a trust of investors.

      • Joe

        Secret customer, secret investors of a very secret product. All perfectly normal.

        • Alain

          in fact not so surprising for a bgame changing device.
          what is surprising and raise concern, is too much communication.

          Rossi have a bad profile.
          He communicate badly, make technical mistakes, not even compatible with a well organized fake.

          I’m convinced he have something, but not well working (until recently, but who knows)…

  • ups

    45 MW thermal to 15 MW of electric energy with cop about 33%? What about electric energy consumption to maintain nuclear reaction?

    • Steve Robb

      One megawatt electric is needed to generate 6 megawatts thermal. If conversion of thermal energy to electrical energy is 30% then 6 X 0.30 =1.8 MW electrical energy is the gross electric output.

      Subtracting one megawatt electrical energy to run the reactor leaves a net 0.8 MW electrical energy to the grid for sale.

      1.8 MW -1.0 MW = 0.8 MW electrical power to grid

      Scale the results up for other desired power outputs. So if you want 8000 MW electric to grid multiply all the above by 8000.

      While Rossi may have said that raising the temperature was “not a priority” I am sure it is not just top priority.

      The capital cost of the equipment would be the driving factor. I lack information about the Siemens turbine that has been mentioned in particular with respect to the pressure and temperature of the output conditions. I am sure the steam is exhausted to sub atmospheric pressures and temperatures just above the dew point temperature meaning a cooling tower is in order or a large body of water is needed.

      Here once again is a link to my wonderful play “Waiting for E-Cat” for guaranteed laughs or your pixels back. http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/

      Call me vain.

      • http://deleted Steve Robb

        Oops, I meant multiply by 10000 to get 8000 MW electric

        • ups

          To get 6 MW(el) out of 45MW self sustaining e- cat power plant is disappointment.(If we take to the account it size) I hope there will be improvement in technology eliminating need of electricity. More futuristic(may be even crazy 🙂 ) is to get directly electricity (if key process is electron-positron reaction) + heat

  • Lucida

    I wonderdered when His name came up. Tesla: my hero.

    • dragon

      Lets hope that Rossi is not throwing to us Tesla name and everything he is thinking of like 45x1MW plants to do just in order to tell us that he is too busy for the next 5 years, so he cannot deliver E-Cat 2012-2013 like promise. If he is an pursuit to give this power to people, than he should give E-Cat first and work on bigger projects later, so, then he can work for the next 25 years to scale down as much as he wants.

      BUT WE WANT THE E_CAT NOW! Not 5 years from now and not from Siemens or other big (corrupted) player.

      • Ged

        I so hope this is just a side show and the 10 kw domestic units are the real goal…

        It’s just producing energy from nickle and hydrogen that’s important. Advances like the 45 MW plants will come later…

  • Carmania

    “if Rossi can make such a plant it will be a technological marvel”

    Where’s the marvel? He is just connecting a bunch of e-cats together and sends the steam to the Siemens turbine. The high-tech is from Siemens.

    But probably it’s just hot air from Rossi.

    • atanguy

      “Where’s the marvel?”
      Producing that much electricity with a few mg of Ni and H2 That’s where the marvel is Carmania.

      • Carmania

        Yes please, prove that marvel first. I settle for 10 kw, that’s marvel enough for me. What’s the marvel about connecting hundreds of the same small e-cats and send the steam to a generator built by Siemens? It’s seems like just another bait to keep interest up and investors happy.

        • The SoCal D

          You are not important enough to be proven things to. We trusted Big Science they sent Tesla to oblivion. Nothing to prove to you. When E-Cats arrive… buy and be happy.