I spent an hour this afternoon speaking with Andrea Rossi on the telephone. I had intended in publishing my interview as an audio file, but unfortunately, and embarrassingly for me, my phone recording program failed. I did, however take written notes, so in place of the recording I will report here the key points that Rossi made during the interview on various topics we discussed. My apologies to E-Cat World Readers in failing to provide the full contents of the interview.
The Investor’s Trust
Rossi explained that the investors in the trust did not wish to have their identities made public. He did acknowledge that as CEO of Leonardo Corporation while he is still in a position to make decisions, he is accountable now to a new entity, and that every day he has to prove his merit as a CEO.
Leonardo now has the funds to meet current needs. The design and testing of the E-Cat are complete and now the focus is on building the production line for the factory. They are currently building only one factory in the United States– location is unnamed. I asked if there were plans to build factories in other countries, but he said that they are planning for US manufacturing plants only.
Rossi said that currently there are around 50 people working on his team, and that when the plant is completed, Leonardo Corp will employ between 50 and 100 people.
1 MW E-Cat Plant
Rossi is very pleased with the plant now. He said they have solved all the problems they needed to take care of and they are about two weeks away from shipping it. He also said that the E-Cat module used in the plant has been redesigned. I asked where the product would be shipped to, but he would not say — the military entity is secret, and if he named the destination it would give a clue about who the customer is. Once the first plant is delivered, work will start on the next eleven plants.
The cost for the 1 MW plant is $1.5 million USD, and they are currently taking orders. There will be a four month wait from the time of order to the time of delivery. Plants can be shipped all over the world.
Electrical Production
Rossi reported on what he considered a significant breakthrough in the area of electrical production. He said that just a few days ago Siemens AG (German engineering firm) were with him in his Bologna factory and they demonstrated a turbine that could produce electricity at 30 per cent efficiency from a steam temperature of 251 C. This is much lower than the 550 C steam temperatures that are required in conventional electrical generation. Rossi said that the E-Cat becomes unstable when working at high temperatures. He said that because of this breakthrough he feels like electrical production from the 1 MW plants could take place sooner than expected. Electricity production from the small E-Cats will still take some time according to Rossi.
Siemens is one of the largest engineering companies in the world, and Rossi mentioned that Leonardo corporation is getting more attention from people in the industrial sector.
National Instruments
Rossi said that he had been very pleased with the work that National Instruments had done with him, and was very impressed with the people he had worked with, but because the first 1 MW customer was already working with another company, and because there were some timing issues, they decide to go with the other customer. Rossi is confident that they will work with NI in the future.
Domestic E-Cats
Design and testing of the domestic E-Cat is now complete, and the focus is now on the robotized production line in the US factory. So far, Rossi said they have not come up against any obstacles, and work is on schedule. Rossi hopes to start selling products this winter (when it is cold in the Northern Hemisphere), but allows that it is possible that delays could push that back to 16-18 months from now.
Rossi was pleased to be able to say that they have finalized the design and testing of the 10 kW E-cat units. He said that he didn’t want to just produce a metal box — being Italian, he wanted it to have some style. He is pleased with the final desing. I asked if any pictures were available, the answer was not yet. Rossi said the plan was to release the pictures in the Autumn of this year when they begin taking orders.
Rossi also said that he expects in the Autumn to publish is theory on the operation of the E-Cat reaction.
I asked whether there would be a marketing campaign involved at this time. Rossi said that there would be — but the extent of it would depend on how much money was available since advertising was very expensive. He did say that E-Cats would be on display in various cities when the marketing campaign starts.
The final size of these units will be 12 x 12 x 4 inches, and the weight will be 20 lb. A special synthetic insulating material surrounds each reactor to ensure maximum efficiency. There will not be any pictures of the unit released until the fall when he starts accepting orders.
Rossi emphasized that the 10 kW units are designed to be added on to existing heating systems, not to replace them. It will be an appendage that can be used to provide heat to whatever system already exists in homes, allowing users to save on their current sources of fuel. The heat output of these units will be between 40 and 80 degrees C. They will be able to provide home heat and hot water. These units will have fully automatic controls — the customer is not able to modify its operations; Rossi said a COP of 6 is guaranteed.
The units will cost between $600 and $900 per unit, a price that he feels will discourage anyone from going into competition with similar units that are based on reverse engineering of his products. Production is not planned outside the US because the small size of these units makes it fairly efficient to ship all over the world. Customs and shipping costs could make these units up to 20 percent more expensive outside the US.
Rossi reckons that the price of the E-Cat will be so low that no one, even manufacturers in Asia, will be able to compete with the products Leonardo will manufacture in the US.
Competition
I asked Rossi whether he thought any competitors were infringing on his intellectual property. While Rossi continued his policy of not commenting on his competitors he did say that his attorneys are aware of what competitors are doing and would take any actions they feel are necessary.
Certification
Safety certification is has been going on with Underwriters Laboratories for three months, and Rossi expects it to go on for some more months. Both UL and Leonardo are under NDA so Rossi wouldn’t comment further about the process.
Patents
Rossi expects that it will take upwards of five years for the patent to be finally granted. He said his patent attorneys are in dialogue with the US patent office and information is passing back and forth between Leonardo and the USPO.
Rossi’s Health
Rossi said that he has been blessed by God with good health and a strong constitution which allows him to keep up a vigorous work schedule. He typically works 16 hours per day, including some night work, and gets by on 4-5 hours of sleep per day.
These are the main points that were made in our conversation according to my notes and memory.
Frank Acland
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Your phone ate your interview, huh?
Brilliant news that they’re starting on production though! That means that the devices have already received regulatory approval in their final production form – or that everyone involved is clinically insane.
Should be easy enough for a top flight journalist to check that, right?
Yes — software malfunction, sadly.
To be clear: Rossi said that they are not in production of the domestic 10 kW E-Cats yet and Underwriters Life safety certification is not yet complete. He expects that to take “months” yet.
He said the product design and testing is over and their focus is now on building the automated (robotized) production line.
That is still a puzzle. Automating a production line before even having an assembler trained on an existing production line is ridiculous. What feedback is there to optimize production when nothing has yet been produced? About like a hamster running in a cage wheel.
My assumption is it must be base on the previous construction work for the 52 subunits of the 1 MW plant.
From the pictures those units looked built with plumbing hardware, and simple welds. Some of the parts might pass for UL approval, but nothing visible would require automated assembly. Why not just hire a plumber and a welder as lead assemblers, train a bunch of out of work kids, and call it a day?
That would definitely be the cheapest way to go. I’m not sure if that would manage the volumes he’s been saying he’s aiming for. Automated welders, like in car assembly lines, probably would make short work of constructing an E-cat; but I don’t know enough about what sort of automation is available for such a small, simple looking device.
Actually, maybe it’s more of a “stamp/press” automation line, where the major components are stamped out from sheet metal, heated and folded, and then final plumbing welding and assembly done by people?
Sadly, manufacturing is not my area of expertise!
The fact that someone would start to build a factory before they have final regulatory approval is not unusual.
That is what risk-takers do. I suppose that is why Rossi doesn’t want families investing there savings in the ecat.
There are certainly other markets than the US including the European markets, should the regulatory bodies start to be tricky in these regions.
japan would take a few, asia, especially india,pak and china.
HI, GUYS.
aaah, our supper hero, becomes ever stronger.
Keep spraying your new fire around in the right spots.—smile
Simply, I say, “What?”
Can anyone figure out how how many watts the 10 kW E-cat units could put out in generating electricity?
From what I’ve been reading it would appear that given current technology it’s somewhere between 15 – 30% efficiency. That would be 1.5 – 3kW…
If the E-Cat has COP=6 then 15% conversion is not breakeven. There would not be any net electrical power for use outside the system.
As a heat source it could act as a booster. Like getting 6 times as much hot water than by using electricity directly to heat it.
That’s an interesting conundrum. Explains why electrical production hasn’t been much of a focus, yet.
Could be. If it runs in self sustaining mode without any electrical power input, even if at a very low power level (say 1 thermal watt per gram of “fuel”, but at the 400 to 600 degree range that has been mentioned), then as a power source it becomes a game changer. Even if you have to go to a 55 gallon size reactor containing say 200 kilos of nickel “fuel, that is 200,000 grams, after a 5% conversion of the resulting 200,000 watts of thermal power to electrical power, one has 10,000 watts of electricity.
Because of the lower power output the nickel should last 100 times as long (the present E-Cat is said to produce about 100 watts per gram), so such a reactor would operate for about 50 years, instead of 6 months between refueling. Rossi really does need to sell the “fuel”. Mass produced it would be cheap, and people are going to need much more than what is in these little E-Cats.
Correction: 50 years s/b 25 years.
How do you work that out? Can you give your calculations. Doesn’t seem right to me.
Sure.
For accuracy use thermal efficiency not COP, since the E-Cat is not a heat pump.
Thus the thermal efficiency is 6. That means the ratio of output energy divided by input energy equals 6.
Given a stipulated 15% conversion efficiency, that means that 15 parts per 100 parts of the output energy will be converted to electricity.
The number is .15(6)=.90.
Since .90 is less than 1.00, the E-Cat does not produce enough electricity to power itself.
In other words:
Even though it is producing 6 times the (thermal)energy out as the energy going in, after conversion to electricity at 15%, the “electrical” energy out is less than the 1 unit of electrical energy needed to operate the E-Cat.
For every 1 unit of input energy (as electricity) going into the E-Cat, it can generate .90 units of output energy ( as electricity), if the conversion of thermal energy to electricity is 15% efficient.
So he should design a size to power about 12.5 thousand Kilowatts electricity generator in order to power a home in AZ during the air conditioning time.
Even with his low pricing for a 10 KW E-Cat, trying to generate 12,500 watts of electricity over what is required to operate the E-Cat, with a COP of 6, would get expensive. For example, even with the very unlikely 30% conversion of heat to electricity at the E-Cat operating temperature, to obtain 12,500 watts of extra power for other uses would require an E-Cat generating about 94,000 thermal watts. At a more likely 20% conversion
that jumps to 375,000 thermal watts. With a COP of 6, and a conversion efficiency of 20%, the 375,000 thermal watts becomes 75,000 watts electrical, but about 62,500 watts have to go back into the E-Cat to power it, leaving 12,500 watts to use elsewhere.
Rossi needs to raise COP a lot to make electricity generation practical. Otherwise one would have a “large” power plant at the house.
did u use self sustaining mode or minimal input for a time period, say 5hr free run and 1hr boost. that would change the ecats ability as an electrical unit. ecat running at Pie=o and Poe= 12,500 watts. 12,500 watts at .3 eff=3750watts electrical for say 5hrs =18.75kwhrs before boost is needed.
From what I’ve been reading in back issues of Home Power Magazine practical net conversion efficiency for small boiler generator systems is 5% to 8%.
Except for the heat source those inexpensive designs would be a place to start for improving on.
[...] ha rilasciato una nuova intervista. Si tratta di una breve chiacchierata con Frank Acland, che E-Cat World ha pubblicato sotto forma di riassunto – l’intervistatore ha avuto un problema tecnico [...]
Steam Powered 1963 Ford Falcon
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Why is it that people are worried about the
car
OH my God if we don’t get that e-cat to work in
a car, its of now use.
There are poor families with children freezing,
but by god we got to get that E-cat in the Car!
Respect
Kim
when lenr hits the public market, one of three things will happen,
1-feul prices will drop when investors switch markets.
2-prices will spike to gain as much profit until lenr sinks oil.
3- prices stay the same until lenr drives down the demand.
if 1 happens first, the poor will gain from cheap feul, if 2 happens it will be a rough ride until oil sinks.
everyone is tired of expensive energy cost but we must wait until the game changer comes.
in the mean time it is good to start applying thought to the full potential to help to clean up the planet.
transportation by lenr will help lower every day costs increasing the financial ability to stay warm.
u have a good heart kim.
Car conversion. Lets make it simple.
You have choice of conventional car with electric motor or an eletric car with minus battery bank.
Use super-cap for about 20% capacity of battery bank. Simple charge and discharge is all you need.
It will last you a life time. Plus no bloody headaches from electronic controls that can break down. And environmentally Super-green . Cheap and easy to maintain.
For 100kw motor 5 E-Cat units, 50kw(heat)=> 10kw electric generator (at 20% conversion efficiency at 250c)is needed for cruising speed.
Or one 30kw Hyperion at +450c ( 35% single stage turbine conversion efficiency).
Happy driving, for 6 months non-stop (per cartridge $20) ?? ha ha ha!!
“Why are people so worried about the car?” Arguments over oil are getting people killed, we are expending gigantic amounts of money on defense of oil routs, a very large fraction of an average U.S. family’s budget goes toward the cost of fuel for transportation, the automobile is a major polluter, our dependency on oil is giving us a negative balance of payments, people lose jobs as we go further into debt. That is why there is such focus on finding another method of fueling transporters, which includes, The United States Navy which is the worlds largest consumer of oil, ships, trains, trucks, aircraft and automobiles. It is very, very, very, very important.
Don’t forget, even with a 30% efficiency
turbine generating electricity, 70% of
the heat needs to be ejected into the
environment. AT 10KW heat input that means
7.0KW heat ejection rate. This is like
4 small space heaters running continuously
and would almost certainly require an outdoor
radiator, fan and enclosure – like a heat pump.
Sure, use the heat when you can, but at other
times it is going to need its outdoor ejection hardware and the environment is going to have
to accept this heat. More efficient is better.
LENR is not the only thing we need to do to deal with the environmental crises we have begun…of course!
And there is so much more we can do – like reforestation and keyline plowing to sequester atmospheric carbon.
We have moved to a phase in human (and planetary) history where we are no longer just the residents and the beneficiaries of the Garden, we need to become the tenders of the Garden.
And I say we can do that – we are equal to the task and we are up for it.
Much to learn and much to do – this is an enormously fascinating and fulfilling assignment.
The 7 KW can be used for home heating, airco and sanitary. This way we can push the total efficiency probably to 80%+.
This is all of the justification that I need to install a heated swimming pool.
Let me run this past my wife.
Amen to that! Now I’m excited!
Paging Dick Smith, paging Dick Smith.
Yeah, where is that guy. I’d like to give him a good hard verbal poke.
he`s probably calling siemens now, trying to convince them that lenr is a hoax.
Now I begin to ask how ever can I connect the e-cat to my esisting gas heater. I hoped to use E-Cat exactly to REPLACE it!
Hi, Zoltan,
Well this is what you do with your old heater when the time comes, you set the thing in the back door and kick it as far as you can, not needed anymore, —smile
Good Advice
All you need to do and I imagine any good home heating air condition contractor could do it, is enclose a radiator in place of the furnace heat exchanger and use the same fan your present furnace uses .Wouldn’t even have replace the box of the old furnace. Just take out the burner or electric heating coils.
If we talk about eventually having several billion e-cats continuously running, what will be the effect on global climate? It will take several hundred years for the greenhouse gases to go away. Regardless, if we are heating houses, water tanks, swimming pools, auto engines, ship turbines, or electrical turbines, the heat eventually ends up in the oceans or the atmosphere
Too many people totally misunderstand the effect of greenhouse gasses verses thermal heating from industrial sources. The Sun delivers to the Earth an enormous 122 pentawatts (10^15) absorbed by the atmosphere, hydrosphere and lithosphere. The human release of heat is 16.2 GW or 16.2X10^-6 pentawatts. The ratio of the “our” technological energy production to the Sun’s delivered energy to is 16.2X10^-6/122 = 0.13X10^-6 in other words our contribution to the heat added to the Earth system is very, very small. The effect of the greenhouse blanket is the problem. The solution is to cut greenhouse gasses, remove greenhouse gasses or cut the insolation (increase reflectivity of clouds).
lenr will help stop things like gulf spills that disrupt ocean currents and their heat distrubution systems.
what effect does co2 have on aquatic ecocycle, coral depletion with the increase of carbolic acid and co2.
saturation levels in the hydolic systems r increasing, with increased saturation u get a slow down of absorbtion and more staying in the atmosphere.
with a .5 degree rise in global temp means longer exposed areas of heat absorbtion v reflection, and accelerates with each degree of temp. rise.
sea levels r rising, a one inch rise in sea level is alot of water to act as a heat sink, even more dangerous than elevated co2 levels in the atmosphere acting as a heat sink. it takes 1 btu/lb of h20 to raise the temp. 1 degree F. with a rise of 1 inch, how many lbs of water r acting as an energy reservior. does this new reservior contribute to night time temperatures and the rate of planetary heat loss.
nature right now is fighting the equalibrium balance cycle game and the more time passes the greater the imbalance towards the tipping point.
it took nature millions of years to extract co2 and store it in huge reserviors, man is now taking this reservior of co2 and putting it back into the atmosphere and/or ecocycle very quickly
I must admit to having not understood the effect of the melting of the ice caps increasing the amount of water in the oceans available as a heat sink. That’s interesting. The worrying thing is what happens when the last bit of ice melts at the caps? At that point not only do we have increase absorption of light due to the darker regolith but we do not have the increase in the ocean heat sink effect. I would expect the temperature rise rate will increase. That combined with the release of methane from the methane hydrates in the ocean and Siberia could cause a disaster.
yep, sends a shiver down the spine.
lenr will lower oil consumption as a fuel, thereby switching oil over to high production of polyeurathane insulation to be used to lower thermal loss, which should lead to less heat energy produced.
increased r value will help alot.
lenr may encourage more structures using rock instead of wood, inreasing the rate of carbon capture. below grade housing using earth temp. for heating and cooling.
point to point energy use may drop, oil tankers stopped, lighter than air cargo transporter, maybe even domed cities, useing the oil for plastics.
the problem is the cost of energy.
Again, you don’t understand that if we cut greenhouse gas emissions then the greenhouse gas warming effect will soon stop and then probably reverse. The increased use of insulation will have no effect on stopping global warming after the greenhouse gas emissions stop. To better understand this please read my post at 5:41 pm. Insulation will still be of use to limit temperature excursions within a building, but that could be accomplished by adding more thermal mass rather than insulation if the cost of heating is nil.
AI D was talking about thermal pollution by a billion plus ecat not co2, my remarks where directed towards that aspect.
Most of the things you mention already produce heat to power. I don’t know off hand the amount of thermal energy that escapes an internal combustion car engine, but I’d bet it’s comparable… minus the greenhouse gas release.
Getting 10 KW (or 34,120 BTU/hr) of thermal energy off of a 12in x 12in x 4in module will be very difficult to do. The module would need to be very hot (so hot that the reaction becomes unstable?) and the heat exchange would need to be extremely efficient.
Demonstrating your ignorance once again I see. The rate energy could be moved from any unit is a function of the flow rate of the coolant, the coolant inlet temperature, the geometry of the heat exchanger and cooling fluid properties. It would be very simple.
Jupp, considering the flow for one hour will produce 10000*3600 [J]
The energy to heat one kg of water one degree C is 4180 (this is the SI-measure corresponding to the btu)
Assuming the water is heated by 50K we would get
10000*3600/4180/50 = 172 kgs of hot water per hour or about 3 liters per minute. This is doable, a normal water tap fills your glass much faster.
I have two diesel Webasto water heaters which give 2×5000 Watts and they are about this size.
Also remember that a large auto engine, such as in a van or an RV, can easily develop 10 times more, 100kW’s (thermal) in steady state going at highway speeds.
The core temperatures inside of your diesels (or an RV engine) are much higher than the 400 – 500 deg(c) core temperature of the ecat. Plus the heat exchange surface area is probably higher.
Sorry, Steve, but you are only partially correct. You forgot the temperature of the ecat module itself. I am a professional engineer and I know a thing or two about heat transfer calculations. The three factors that drive total heat exchange are: 1) temperature DIFFERENCE between the heat source (at the heat transfer interface) and the heat sink (in other words the cooling medium), 2) surface area over which the heat transfer takes place (geometry of the module, in other words) and 3) heat transfer coefficients (physical properties) of the materials (casing of the module and the layer of laminar flow at the coolant/module interface) through which the heat must flow. The absolute maximum temperature difference that you could achieve in a system such as this is the difference in temperatures between the cooling medium upstream of the device (ie before it has a chance to be heated) and the core temperature of the device. I reality, the true temperature difference would be less than this because the surface of the module would be cooler than its core due to limitations imposed by the heat capacities and thermal conductivities of the materials of construction of the module.
You are correct that flow rate is a factor, but the effect of increased flow flattens out at higher flow rates. At slow flow rates, the cooling medium would be warm, so the temperature difference would be lower. As coolant flow rate increases, the temperature difference increases (because the cooling medium is cooler), but the delta-T can never really equal the maximum that I referenced above.
You could use a cooler medium to enhance heat transfer, but you’d need to use energy to get that temperature much below ambient.
But let’s assume that the maximum theoretical temperature difference is achieved. If this is the case, then total heat transfer is totally dependent on: 1) the geometry of the ecat module (ie surface area) and 2) the heat transfer coefficients of the e-cat module enclosure plus that of the boundary layer formed by the flowing coolant around the e-cat module enclosure. Hence the size, shape and temperature of the device IS relevant and I stand by my statement that it will be a challenge to extract 34,120 BTU/hr of heat out of an object that is only 12in x 12in x 4in and is well below the temperature of a fire. The fire on a typical cooking stove (or the fire in your furnace) tends towards the higher end of the 1000 deg(c) – 2000 deg(c) range. Rossi says that he needs to keep his core process temperature in the 400 – 500 deg(c) range.
Bruno, I happen to have a electric tank-less water heater. It uses 2-40amp 220v breakers to power it. That’s roughly 16kw with both circuits running. The heat exchanger is 2 tubes with a resistor wire inside, the tube is 1″ in diameter and 9″ long which heats the water as it flows through it. So I do not see a problem with Rossi’s 12x12x4 dimensions.
A couple of things to consider,Scott. The temperature of the resistive coil in the heat exchange tube is much hotter than the ecat (hence higher heat transfer). Also, you are heating water which will extract heat from the tubes much more efficiently than will air. So unless the ecat will be used primarily for heating water, your analogy doesn’t entirely hold up. If you heat water and then heat the air in a secondary heat exchanger, then it will need to be somewhat bigger than 12in x 12in x 4in.
Just as a calibration point, 34,000 BTU is equivalent to 2 or 3 gas stove burners. That’s a lot of heat, but I’m guessing the power produced versus size is not unlike current furnace burners (which are typically significantly more than 34,000 BTU, at least in the US.
The difference is that gas stove burners are MUCH hotter than an ecat (maybe 1500 deg(C) vs 500 deg(C)) and the combined surface areas of three full flames on a stove is not much different than a 12in x 12in x 4in module.
Excellent points. Your clear argument (longer post just above) has in fact convinced me that the thermal story here doesn’t hold up. I have already been a major “skeptic” regarding claims that they will be ready for mass production in 8 months. But you, sir, have surfaced what appears to be a basic scientific flaw to their story! Truly, no amount of flow-rate of any conceivable fluid at room temperature (or thereabouts) is going to be able to pull a lot of thermal energy off of a metal pizza box just barely above the boiling point of water. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience!
So I was wondering what would it take to propel a vehicle?
If 100 Hp (74600 W) is required and the output of the E-cats are 250 C (520 K) and 12 bar per this unit from Siemens: http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/Steam-Turbine-for-geothermal-power-plants-604706
Unfortunately I don’t know the exhaust temperature or pressure. I assume the unit exhausts to a temp 5 kelvin above dewpoint (I assume they are using a cooling tower) for a Tcold = 10 + 5 =15 celsius or 288 K
Carnot efficiency = Ec = 1-Tcold/Thot = 0.45
whereas they advertise 30%
The ratio of the two is 30/45 =0.67 (the are getting 67% of the Carnot efficiency).
If you use a vehicle in Phoenix Arizona at 120 F or 321 K the Carnot efficiency is
Ec = 1-321/520 = 0.38
Using the above ratio to correct to the real world efficiency gives Er = 0.67(0.38) =0.25 In other words you will need four times the heat energy for the required shaft work (or power for that matter).
Required heat power = 4*74600 = 300,000 W or thirty of these small E-cats for a 100 Hp engine. Ratio the results for other Hp requirements.
Not haven’t worked out what size condenser would be required. Of course you could always exhaust the water to the atmosphere but you would need to fill up with distilled water. You could have an E-cat powered distiller at home.
So I was wondering what would it take to propel a vehicle?
Would it propel a car?
Yes, a car is a vehicle. Is that what you were asking or did I misunderstand?
You have a nice sense of humor. I am sure you also must be that person who disarms the politically-correct pseudo-friends’ snide remarks. Bad people must have a real hard time trying to give you a hard time. Am I correct?
The only people who disturb me are ignorant people who don’t know how ignorant they are and disingenuous people who call others frauds and liars while at the same time commiting fraud and telling lies.
@steve ignorant people not knowing how ignorant they are: I think this is closely related to the Dunning–Kruger effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
The problem is, that just about everyone can relate to this – but no one knows which side they sit on
you can currently find steam to electric cars on youtube. I saw one that would work with an ecat witth a 25 kw generator.
With temperatures of 130 degrees we would pretty much need to keep filling the car with water as the AR ecat does not look very powerful, and a closed loop system would create way too much drag.
It might be possible to have ecat powered trucks or cars with big trailers at this time.
As LENR research becomes mainstream, or if Defkalion claims are true, cars will become much more prudent with an ecat.
No worries. We will all have ecat options on cars within 10 years, but if you want to do it now check youtube for steam electric cars.
check out mellenium challenge on utube, silcon powered ship circles the globe.
I don’t know that the amount of power the ecat provides would be the limiting factor. I mean, a lower powered unit would simply use up the water slower but propel you slower. So either way, the limiting factor is how much water you can carry.
Which brings up the question: how far can you go on a gallon of water using the e-cat for propulsion, assuming you’re pushing a 1 ton vehicle.
A boat wouldn’t have the same problem, as it could use the water it rides on as the water source. If it has to be distilled, then possibly it use the excess heat to distill the water for propulsion.
good question, maybe by useing pressure relief valve system u could pulse pump water jets.
but probably easier using electric drive water jets.
i am working the concept of low hp (350w), low weight, urban transporter. applying ecat with photovoltaics.
with higher hp, bottled n2, air motion cooling can lowere Tcold,night v day temp., weight reduction using high strenght plastics.
alot of variables to shift around and apply.
100 hp=74600w=74600N=74600kg/m/sec=746kg/100m/sec.
transportation doesn`t require a 100hp, 10hp is sufficient.
10hp=7460w=746kg/10m/sec. 10m/sec=36000m/hr=36km/hr
once desired velocity is achieved, the only energy required is frictional loss. at this point with ur down to 3hp to maintain velocity, equaling one or 2 ecats.
I didn’t quite follow your calcs. So try this to calc the required power to accelerate to 36 km/hr. The power needed to accelerate M=100 kg from Vi = 0 m/s to Vf = 10 m/s (36 km/hr or 22 mph) in 10 seconds is
Power * delta-time = KE = 0.5 * M * Vf^2 = 0.5(100)(10)^2 = 5000 watts
If the efficiency is 20% then 5000/0.2 = 25000 watts is needed or 2.5 e-cats. Scale it up to 5 ecats for 44 mph. After that the wind resistance grows as a cube of the speed and soon the terminal speed will size the engine.
Well, I screwed that calc up. Try:
Power * delta-time = KE = 0.5 * M * Vf^2 = 0.5(100)(10)^2 =5000 joules
Power = 5000/delt-time = 5000/10 =500 watts
If the efficiency is 20% then 500/0.2 = 2500 watts is needed or 1/4 e-cats is needed. Scale it up to 1/2 ecats for 44 mph. After that the wind resistance grows as a cube of the speed and soon the terminal speed will size the engine.
Screwed it up again. Oh, well I give up.
if i could get an extra 4hrs per day run time i would b happy.
at $15/month, 20km/hr beats walking and carrying weight.
I understand your calculation
Nevertheless i drive daily a ultra light motor cycle
38 kg 1000 watts hé CAN get me in less than 10!secs at 36 km/h you CAN check etricks from Sev !
Cheers
Steve
Your numbers are comparable to mine allowing for different variables. Depending on the weight/size of the E-cats & generators & Electricity used from them, for them. This would require additional E-cats. Possibly 50+. A Half Mwh E-cat setup. Each would need to be recharged every 6 months at $10 to $20 each. This ends up being a very large vehicle. The combined costs etc, seems impractical at this time.
Better option for now would be if they come out with electric cars with at least a 150 mile range & have a trio or quad E-cat generating system at home to plug into at night. The reason for multiple E-cats would be so they could generate their own power requirements. 4 units would produce 12Kw Electric, but require approximately 6.4Kw to operate. Leaves a balance of just over 5Kw.
(Cop>1:6. 10Kwh E-cat requires 1.6+Kwh input. Basic answer Rossi gave to someone. Cop-6 is always Cop-6)
Benefit would be providing Energy for your car, Some of your electrical needs at home, heat & cooling, & hot water.
Still, Rossi has said the 1st E-cats for home use will only produce 40 to 80 degree Celsius so we’ll have to wait for the Improved models down the road.
It’s a good start in the right direction anyway.
If Rossi’s statements are accurate as to above, the 1st E-cats may not be practical for everyone with out some improvements. Especially the Electrical generation part.
Figure 730 hours per month at 1.6Kwh would equal about 1168Kwh @ 12 cents– approximately $140 per month. This exceeds my present heating costs average & more then quadruples my hot water costs.
If you have an apartment complex it would be more justifiable. That’s the flaw in a single E-cat without Electric capability. They run 24/7 or take an hour to ramp up every time their shutdown. Otherwise they draw power. 1.6Kw whether you use the heat or dump it.
Here’s a tidbit.
The Fed & State still want their road/gas tax. Several states have passed legislation & more to follow. To be applied when there are enough non-conventional vehicles on the road. Kind of like a pay-pass for toll roads. Questions being debated is shutting off your vehicle when the account reads zero or waiting until you’ve reached you designation. Vehicles will have wireless connections. Tax Probably in the range of 5 to 10 cents per mile. We’ll still have to filler up. Debit or Credit card please.
A typical boiling water nuclear power plant operates using saturated steam at a low temperature, so it’s not surprising that Siemens has steam turbines that can operate at 251 degC. I’m sure that GE, Westinghouse, Toshiba and other companies in the same industry do too. The question isn’t whether electricity can be produced from an ecat operating at 251 degC. The real question is whether there really is an ecat. At this point we only have Rossi’s word with zero corroboration. Until a well recognized entity steps up and confirms Rossi’s story (or a truly unbiased public test takes place), it’s all speculation.
“A typical boiling water nuclear power plant operates using saturated steam at a low temperature,…”
Sorry, but I have to call B.S. on the above. The input to the high pressure turbine of a stationary power plant is superheated steam at 950 F (520 C) and 1600 psia.
The less a person knows about a subject the more speculative their conclusions will be. From your post it is obvious that you don’t know much about the subject and probably have no engineering abilities and I wonder about your “common” sense abilities. There are those among us that are able to connect the dots into a coherent story.
I have to agree with Bruno on this one, you are both right.
A modern steam plant would use two-stage turbines to get to efficiencies near 60%. It might be that the low temp stage is what Siemens is offering, it would be believable with an efficiency of about 30%.
Advertising won’t be a problem – Rossi is a top tier celebrity, and him making the rounds of news programs and talk shows will give Leonardo maybe billions of dollars in free publicity.
I suggest he spend his limited advertising budget on a PR firm that can prep and schedual his public appearences. BTW, if Rossi refuses to devote full-time to PR after his manufacturing company is built, then he is making a very bad mistake in terms of his responsibility to his company.
Great coup for you Frank! This is full of interesting info .But of course it’s none of it verifiable really unless we get some outsiders e.g. Siemens prepared to back it up.
One thing Rossi could do without compromising anything is in two weeks’ time show the 1 MW plant being loaded on a truck and leaving his facility.
Rossi’s E-Cat for domestic use with a COP of 6, has an output of 10KWh of thermal energy: say it could cost 700$.
With two units in series (thus costing 1,400$) we can get 20KWh of thermal energy.
With four E-Cats we can have 40KWh of thermal energy spending 2,800$.
The domestic E-Cats will have a 30yrs span life.
The costs for the small refills, to be replaced every 6 months of real operating time, are very very low indeed.
What more at the moment?
The Defkalion’s Hyperion, when and if it will be available, how much will is cost?
Why did Rossi actually name Siemens? I thought he would be very concerned about protecting his suppliers from the snakes and clowns. Or is it that he needs another known name now that National Instruments is out of the game. Why did he not name his current supplier then?
Of course the 1MW plant is just another two weeks from being delivered.
How does he plan to deliver a new plant within 4 months from from the time of order when he still doesn’t have the first running and another 11 to be built? But maybe his definition of delivery differs from the common one. It almost seems so.
Another bunch of confusing ramblings from Italy.
Why do you wonder that he mentioned partnership with Siemens? It will clearly not be be any “snake attempt” against this German giant company. Certainly interesting that Rossi is playing with the big guys.
If he can show he is associated with large legitimate well known companies with good reputations then by extension he will gain legitimacy even if these associations have nothing to do with the LENR core tech and just the common industrial control parts.
E-Cat is secret, Customer is secret now investors in trust are secret, nothing surprising here.
This secret customer cant be in the USA, don’t the US have laws requiring various certifications of industrial machines even if they are sold to business entities?
Guy, lenr, check your sources. NI has explicitly confirmed, through an official spokesman, Rossi’s account of he relationship with them:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/national-instruments-spokesperson-corroborates-rossis-account-of-relationship/
You are the one who sounds confused. He named them because he is working with them. Have you heard them deny it? You obviously have little experience with cutting edge engineering or you would understand that such delays are not uncommon and do not in themselves constitute any basis for accusations of fraud. Regarding Italy, as you know, it is the birthplace of Leonard da Vinci, among others. So to take your xenophobic ramblings and have them for dinner.
I don’t think the delay in of itself points to fraud, the man’s history alone does that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29
Don’t take it so personally, even if everyone in the world says good things about Rossi it would not make his e-cat any more real. The same with asking critical questions will not make it any more fake. Belief cannot make something real only empirical evidence.
Frank, thanks for doing that. There are so many negaative people out there, that continuously snipe (thanks Forbes) – it’s good too see that you’re a proper journalist who has bother to produce some new info.
“A monopoly on the means of communication may define a ruling elite more precisely than the celebrated Marxian formula of ‘monopoly in the means of production.’” Robert Anton Wilson
OK I gave it a little more thought and 10kWh is 10kWh no matter what form and it is what it is. The problem is that it uses electrical energy and even with a COP of 6 is not much better than natural gas in terms of cost. I suppose if you don’t have NG or the ratio the cost of electricity to NG is much less than 6 it would make sense to use an E-Cat. Still I don’t see many people adopting these.
I agree with natural gas it is at least three times cheaper to produce the same heat vs resistive heating but prices can vary significantly by location.
From what was said earlier the e-cat takes an hour to “warm up” before it starts producing energy from nuclear reactions. It makes me wonder if the device for practical reasons has to be powered on continuously and what actual effeciency ends up being if you don’t demand all 10kw/h from it at all times. Hopefully the self sustaining mode does not use much energy when the e-cat is not needed.
Can’t wait for a power generating version of the e-cat.
Well there are other issues. I think one needs a 30Amp (US) electrical branch service to operate it. This is not a minor electrical upgrade and may not be possible for some.
Also I think it’s always on. You regulate it by diverting the heat. This is an outcome of the 1 hour start time (and 1 hour stop time) you mentioned. I might be wrong here but this how I understand it based on Rossi’s statements.
It’s only in self-sustaining mode for a few hours at a time. Regardless the COP is still 6.
For me NG is 4.7 times cheaper which less than 6 but certainly not enough to qualify the E-Cat as producing free energy.
I agree with you there. It’s not the cost of natural gas/electrical that’s the problem I’m my area. Most time the “delivery charge” and what not that adds up to more than the cost of the actual fuel/energy. If people still have to pay these charges plus to operating cost of the ecat I can’t see it being very economical.
Can we see your calculations? I think a lot depends on how much energy you use and how you amortise the capital cost – because it’s much better financially than 6 over one.
Thanks for the interview and very good note taking by the way!
I am a bit perplexed about what the E-Cat will do. It seems it’s a 10kW system and outputs water from 40-80C from presumably say 25C.
If the water goes from 25C to 80C then I get .6 gals/min of 80C water, assuming it’s 100% efficient. For a shower one would want say 45C and this would make 1.89 gals/min which is not enough for a 2.5 gal/min shower.
All this would be using electrical heat which given a COP of 6 is not really that much better than NG which is much cheaper for me and what I use to heat water. It costs me about $.17 kWh for electricity and about $.036kWh for NG. With a COP of 6 the E-Cat would be $.028kwH which is cheaper but not by much.
What am I missing here?
I think you are missing that COP 6 is guarantied but you will probably get much more. On really cold days an air heat pump still works rather poorly. You could dig a hole to get heat from the ground but the investment is very large compared to the cost of an e-cat. Remember that this is only the start, Defkalion already guaranties COP 20. Whithin short there will be self feeding (selfsustained) systems and we will not discuss COP anymore.
Thanks. I agree with you that as far as technology goes there will inevitably be significant increases in performace. However I made my statement about Rossi’s E-Cat. I’m sure it will be more than 6 but how much more? If it is “much more” I think Rossi would have upped the COP. We’ll have to see on this one.
First we have to see an ecat, that is not just a dream.
Most home heating systems use a thermal store of some kind, ranging from a relatively small hot water tank of 50 litres or so, up to 250 litres or more in many solar powered installations. The output is therefore stored as hot water accumulates, and would be adequate for showers etc.
Larger thermal stores can also be used to part-power CH systems via heat exchangers that draw on the stored heat. Rossi says no mods are needed to existing systems, but I think that in practice many people will need to install a large thermal store somewhere to take advantage of the continuous output.
10kW would be just about enough to provide all hot water and modest central heating in small or well-insulated homes, assuming some kind of storage. I imagine that Rossi envisages the ‘old’ system (oil/gas) operating as backup when demand exceeds the 10kW.
you are missing that the e-cat is not at all about price.
andre
Thanks. That’s true but 1/6 of the energy comes from electricity which is still carbon based. However, it is another form of energy and will reduce dependency on carbon based energy forms.
Here again we run into the “tyranny of small numbers”. They say, “get a small gain in cost efficiency”, you say “nah, not worth the bother”. Multiply this by a few million people with the same mindset and what do you get?
More CO2 + a combined loss of opportunity for a massive adoption of the technology to have a really significant impact on traditional energy production.
Start thinking seriously about the bind we’re in from a world wide perspective!
Thanks and good points. But given the numbers most people will change over as their old systems need replacing and not immediately, don’t you think?
I guess ecological factors would justify a state subvention…
NG is a vented carbon based fuel, alot of heat goes up the stack, lenr has no emmissions.
the cost for NG maybe $.036/kwhr but the loss puts it at $.06/kwhr at actual use and is highly dangerous, carbon monoxide and/or flameout for gas build up. a few times in my life i have seen flameout cause by the wind.
I confess that I would still like to get a little more confirmation and a little less hot air. This only demonstrates that he either has something real or his psychotic fantasies are very elaborate. I hope and feel that it is the former, not the latter.
Reality is about to bifurcate, twill be one or the other.
[...] Further info on E-cat. Looks like a lot is happening. Altho, small units for individuals might take longer. Rossi: Siemens AG Helping with Leonardo Corp. With Efficient Electricity Generation | E-Cat World [...]
Nice to have an update and clarification. Rossi’s behavior may seem erratic to an outsider but the shifting of priorities, team members, investors with money and I assume expertise in business and law sounds like the changes he needs to make to grow into a company capable of pulling this 1 million e-cats out of the hat trick. If I can have one update as positive and clear as this a month I will be a happy man.
Here’s a link to a page about Siemens generator that seems to fit the description in the interview. It is presently being used in geothermal systems for generating electricity, at relatively low temperature of 250 degrees C. http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/Steam-Turbine-for-geothermal-power-plants-604706
Thank’s Richard. Saved me searching for it
Check out the 65MW puppy
http://www.energy.siemens.com/fi/en/power-generation/steam-turbines/sst-400.htm
I can see these 1MW plants taking off!
Place about 60 of those next to a river and a power grid with the Steam Turbine SST-400 connected – wow!- we will all be getting REALLY cheap electricity in ten years or so right to your home.
So cheap, we won’t really be needing home units!
Charge your car up for 10c per kw – off you go…
Thank-you for initiating a good news report, and we trust your memory and notes enough to understand you have given us all the relevant information.
It is good news. Andrea Rossi can be somewhat hard to understand sometimes anyways although his english seems improved.
Thank-you for the update.
I thought Andrea Rossi is incorporated for normal reasons and legalities. I thought he used this incorporation to duck the fake Dick Smith offer, but still calls the shots.
off topic: Isnt’t Defkalion supposedly going to be testing this week. They seem awfully quiet?
Indeed a good article. Why can’t reputed schools produce journalists like this? Is it too much to ask these big news organizations to deliver at least the basic quality of writing, if not the content?
They are quiet because they speak of destruction while reverse engineering… microsoft… and Rossi dares “Asian” reverse engineers to manufacture it cheaply… he also speaks of wanting to explain the reaction… Open source …Linux.
Every time I read a article from the mainstream, with its predictable skeptic bend or dead silence and alternatively read information like this provided by the new media I hear another nail driven in the old media’s coffin. I celebrate every time I hear of journalists being laid off.
There is one application for the 10kw unit that may not be that significant as a technology game changer but would be really nice and that is for heating pools. Those who have pools know that the swim season is only about 3-4 month, the remaining 8 months the pool is not very swimable… and conventional gas heating is typically too expensive (and wasteful as well)to be really viable. With a 10kw ECAT I can see easily ad another 2 or 3 months to the swim season (almost doubling it). That certainly would be well worth 900 bucks to do. Maybe not revolutionary in the grand scheme of things but certainly very nice for pool owners… and maybe a good market to target sometime down the road.
No Joking here, but one obscure industry I could see making a viable comeback is Blimps. We would not have to brave fires with hydrogen filled vehicles, and hot air could raise huge floating hotels like the former Hindenburg.
Just thinking outside the box for a hoot.
hey kwhilborn, haven`t seen u 4 awhile, thought u went the assie to have a talk to dick lol.
lol
I can see skeptics attacking AR or Defkalion, but that guy insults every American scientist, Science Organization, and University that claims LENR is a real but possibly
still uncontrollable excess Power.
Listenning to him say organizations like NASA are getting (Joe Zawodny,”demonstrated excess power”) because they did not ground their lead wires is infuriating. Everybody remembers he alledgedly was going to put up a sum of money but most forget how insutive and disruptive he was to LENR research in general.
Yeah; I should have a talk with him. lol
with platinium lenr reactors creating vast amounts of helium, yes lighter than air will be a work horse of transportation.
i`ve been thinking on the ecat, i am current crunching the numbers and designs to incorperate solid state TEGs with the ecat to create a charging and heating system for an e-vehicle.ecat would definitely help with cold weather driving.
Has anyone noticed a change in Rossi’s tone in terms of ecat stability? Perhaps at least twice in the past few weeks, Rossi seems to imply there are stability issues with the device. He seems to state here that Ecat is unstable at high temperatures and, on his blog, he seems to state that ecat can only run stable in self sustain mode for a limited time. These two items alone might not be an obstacle to using ecat for general heat generation. But they do make one realize that Ecat is a new, complicated device still in the early stages of development.
We will see months down the road if Siemens is still associated with Rossi or if they issue a statement similar to what NI issued recently…
LENR seems verified on hundreds of fronts, but is considered very unstable. How do they keep all of the Nickel from burning up at the same time and creating too much heat and melting the works or causing a pressure explosion?
Andrea Rossi claims keeping his reaction slower at lower temperatures is key, yet Defkalion seems to have “burt” energy which implies more start/stop?
Will be fun to see. I hope one of them has the key if not both.
I can’t help think there must be some special relation of the nano particles w.r.t. each other. It is necessary but not sufficient to have nano size particles but also to have some geometric association of those that may degrade over time. Perhaps localized fusing of the nickle limits the life to six months as the points within the powder are used up. I wonder what happens if you bang on an e-cat with a hammer? Does the output jump up as the vibrations change the geometry of the particles?
nano particles, highest surface to volume.
high rate of proton infusion.
harmonic oscilation of lattice- when atoms in the lattice shift in one direction then the wave reverse directions, the protons that r trapped in the lattice r compressed in a moment of time as the wave reverses direction, creating multiple reactions, as the wave reverse, the wave again creates compression in the other direction.
the number of compression reations being limited per wave motion and untake of new protons.
may also be using offsetting oscilaltions to create the freight trains collising head on.
heat helps to lower the currie effect of the atom, helping to over come the coulomb barrier.
with each wave, x amount of reations takes place and enough to give usable cop.
could b that around 6 months time the chance of reaction becomes to low for increased energy out put by insufficent protons.
math calculation must be pretty precise for reaction rate over time.
don`t know if this is correct, just the way i picture it.
Keep the Nickel from burning? As I have understood you limit the amount of Hydrogen. If you turn of the Hydrogen there is no reaction at all.
could also be nickel loss in the lattice contributing to nickel burn,
the amount of transmutions in the lattice may hamper the reaction rate over time by destablizing the lattice purity.
s, highly intelligent analysis. Thanks. There is a growing suspicion that Rossi is having some technical difficulties. However, technical difficulties will soon be overcome soon after the reality of this technology is discovered by the world — if the two entities on the case, Rossi and Defkalion won’t have it solved before then.
Carnot knowledge:
If Tc = 93.8 C then Tc = 366.95 Kelvin and, similarly, Th = 251 + 273.15 = 524.15 Kelvin.
E (efficiency or Eta) < or = 1 – Tc/Th.
Eff. ( < or = ) 1 – 366.95/524.15 = 0.2999 or 30%.
You can also make Tc colder! 93.8 C is practically boiling.
If Tc = 73.8 C or 346.95 K, efficiency goes to 33.8%. Not much difference but a 3% increase from 30% is a lot.
Coolant probably is at a temperature much below 73 or 93 C, with losses due to system inefficiencies.
Still, good news is good news.
Actual efficiency will be much much less than ideal efficiency as calculated above.
Hi, guys
JOB WELL DONE MY FRIEND,all good news, thanks so much.
Frank great interview glad to see you were able to talk directly with Dr Rossi, this is very interesting news of Rossi in communication with Siemens, the Germans are moving fast on alternative energies.
siemens is a big name for rossi to drop, another passenger on the lenr train.
Awesome. I like how Siemens demonstrated a turbine that could produce Electricity with the E-Cat,
Thanks for the information. Enjoyed it. Steve
If its true the whole story I see major problems, keeping the existing heat system, this is very bad idea, for example people in Europe with centralized heating, how would you suppose that someone would use such system with Rossi ecat, why would that person paid for others because the system is circular.
I don’t like Rossi idea at all.
Also shipping from USA is very bad idea, for example such device with 20lb shipped to Europe for example to Italy, Croatia, Romania… would cost no less than 200euros which is almost the half of the price 600$=448euros
Advice to Rossi take 3-4x 1000mg Omega3 (nowfoods) and take 3x600mg of Magnesium (also by nowfoods) on a daily basis.
closed loop on the hot water tank/s using heat sensors to activate pumps and ecat, external lines from tank can be tied to heat exchanger in furnace.simple system actually.
usa is problably a test field, and once bugs r worked out the ecat system goes to europe, or maybe it`s dgt back yard.
I believe there is a European partner named Hydro Fusion. They could be distributors for E-Cat in Europe.
Don’t let better become the enemy of good enough. All I need is a 1.5 kW space heater.
All I need is a 100% self-sufficient, powered house.
yes, the world wide dream.
and an electric car
/boat.
None of those sail things either. If I’m going to have cheap power I want a big yacht capable of hydrofoil speeds.
If power will be almost free forget sailing.
Loop, I agree with your dietary recommendations. The man is 61 years old, not superman.
I agree about NOW supplements but they are manufactured in Chicago, so high shipping to Italy, Croatia, Romania…
Resveratrol !!!
Live forever