Rossi Vows Fight to Defend Intellectual Property



Andrea Rossi responded to an inquiry about the recent test of his E-Cat mentioned by Roland Pettersson with a stern declaration about defending his intellectual property. The full text of his post is below:

Dear Martin:
We started the tests of the domestic reactor. The technology is completely changed, new patents have been applied for, an intense testing program is going on. With very good results. The data are totally covered, we are talking of the unit that will me made in 1 million pcs/year, we will not give any data before the next Autumn. No pictures will be available until the product will be for sale. The strategy with which we will annichilate the competition must remain secret to the last moment. By the way: if there is out there some clown that thinks to buy a bulk of E-Cats, change the body and say”here is our product! We copied it from Rossi because we are the Mandrake of the copycat!” better forget it from now. Our sales will go exclusively to our Customers and our Licensees and we will be very much aware of where our E-Cats will go: no bulk sales outside our sales network, and a price too low to allow a profitable reverse-engineering. By the way: we are receiving very strange and pretty much clownesque requests of pre-order for tens of thousands of E-Cats from the Aegean area…. By the way: all the investors who think to make money investing in companies who are copying our patents, both pending and granted, better prepare an army of attorneys: we will not only make extremely competitive prices, but also will defend in all the competent Courts our Intellectual Property. Better to know this from the very beginning.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Interestingly, Rossi is not only warning potential competitors that he stands ready to defend his intellectual property rights in court, he is also sending a message to potential investors in his competitors. Very possibly he is directing his comments to Defkalion Green Technologies in these remarks — possibly there are others he has in mind. Defkalion’s strategy is to provide its technology to manufacturers who pay a substantial license fee, and in this statement Rossi is perhaps hoping to discourage people from signing up as a licensees of Defkalion.

No doubt Rossi’s competitors have their own legal strategies lined up if they are challenged on intellectual property grounds — and it could be that the moment the E-Cats hit the market that legal action on a variety of fronts is taken. It’s hardly surprising to see this kind of posturing ahead of what could be a launch of a groundbreaking technology — there’s lots at stake.

  • Jardar

    Why patent?

    So, Rossi might have discovered a source of energy that might more or less solve the most serious problems of the world today – including perhaps the future of mankind alltogether.

    He then chooses to be very particular about protecting his patent.

    God forbid someone else got rich from saving mankind!

    Come on man, be a tad more altruistic? Give away your device, just give it away! Let people test it independently, build their own devices, make money from them, use them for masturbation, whatever! If you have done what you claim you have done, how can you seriously be concerned about your own ******* WALLET??!

    • http://www.pdfernhout.net Paul Fernhout

      Jadar, I agree that Rossi should try to look at a large (altruistic) picture. That’s why I sent a note to Rossi over a year ago about that general topic (copied at the following link), but he does not seem to have thought about it much.

      Here is a summary of the key ideas in that note (and the rest of the note is on that page too):
      http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Economic_Transformation
      “The key point here is that breakthrough clean energy technologies will change the very nature of our economic system. They will shift the balance between four different interwoven economies we have always had (subsistence, gift, planned, and exchange). Inventors who have struggled so hard in a system currently dominated by exchange may have to think about the socioecenomic implications of their invention in causing a permanent economic phase change. A clean energy breakthrough will probably create a different balance of those four economies like toward greater local subsistence and more gift giving (as James P. Hogan talks about in Voyage From Yesteryear). So, to focus on making money in the old socioeconomic paradigm (like by focusing on restrictive patents) may be very ironic, compared to freely sharing a great gift with the world that may change the overall dynamics of our economy to the point where money does not matter very much anymore.”

      It’s sad to see Rossi going this route into competition and conflict. It will likely dissipate his creative energy into lawsuits and so on, and tarnish his legacy.

      Anyway, I’d recommend to people to read the somewhat satirical novel I mentioned there called “Midas World” by Frederick Pohl (the central story about being written in the 1950s) to gain some perspective on possible social changes and cheap energy — and the challenges to an inventor who keeps thinking in terms of money too long. James P. Hogan’s 1982 sci-fi novel “Voyage From Yesteryear” is another great read in this area.

    • John Adrian

      I think the real point is…

      History is filled with schmucks who innocently brought their divinely-inspired idea to market, only to die in poverty because a better businessman stole the idea and left them out in the cold.

      FACT: Once Rossi’s devices are reverse-engineered, 1000 very minor variations on his theme WILL GET PATENTED by OTHERS. Then HE will be in a tight bind to develop any improvements.

      When a US G-Ment-funded lab or university steals YOUR idea, THEY get THEIR (well-funded) lawyers to patent it… …THEN THEY elbow YOU out by monopolizing it.

      — THEY have the [very experienced] resources to ensure the only money made is made by them alone.

      The only alternative is to make the idea “public domain” (e.g. by presenting it at a national symposium). This only works on expensive initial concepts [if no funding source is yet available], because then NO-ONE gets g-ment or external funding.

  • Jon

    Four quid a day added to the electricity bill??? That’s an extra three hundred and sixty quid over ninety days. I thought this thing was supposed to be all about reducing bills? That’s a non-starter for me. My last gas bill was about three hundred pounds for the previous three months.

  • http://Yahoo.com John Thomas

    Wait and See….Rossi has a lid on his box to prevent us from seeing inside….and august 2013 is not so far away……..Here in the Philippines I will buy one, even to use only as a waterheater, tired of cold showers every dsy of my life..

  • FILIP

    unless it makes electricity in a selfsustaining mode, it’s worthless for private use.

    • Francesco CH

      I pay 600 euros to heat my home, with the E-Cat this bill can decrease up to 100 euros.

      It is not worthless

      • FILIP

        it’s not enough. to be a commercial succes, to sell one million devices a year, he has to do better or it’s a dead born calf. The futur of commercial LENR is at stake. people will wait until it produces electricity, and AR sais it will in the near futur, so why not wait a few years?
        It’s just an opinion.
        BTW I pre-ordered one, but just to tell my friends I bought a nuclear reactor, cool :)

        • Anthony

          That’s like saying it’s not worth buying a central heating boiler – do they produce electricity ?

  • evleer

    Although I’m very excited about the prospect of LENR devices hitting the market, I’m afraid that AR’s first generation E-Cat will heavily disappoint in terms of cost-effectiveness.

    To make this clear, I will give an example, based on my own situation.

    In my house, I currently have a 2.6kW natural gas burning furnace, used for house heating and warm tapwater. It would take 3 10kW E-Cats to make for a complete replacement.

    The existing furnace warms only on demand, so during sleeping hours and while at the office, it doesn’t hardly burn any gas at all, thus reducing the costs during these hours to virtually zero.
    The E-Cat however, from what we know, has to sustain it’s LENR reaction 24/7, thereby drawing substantial amounds of power from the grid (averaging 1.6kWh according to Rossi). The difference becomes even more pregnant during the summer season, when there is no need to heat the rooms.

    Now let’s make a calculation based on the situation above. Three E-Cats draw 3 x 1.6kWh = 4.8kWh on average. With a energy price of € 0.23 per kWh (where I live), this comes down to € 805/month. In comparison, my annual gas consumption is around 2000m3, resulting in a gas bill of € 1200/year or € 100/month.

    This means that replacing my old furnace with E-Cats would not decrease, but rather increase my heating costs by a factor of 8!!

    To conclude: for the E-cat, in order to be cost-effective in real-world household applications, it is mandatory to have some kind of power-savings mode in which it draws little to no power from the grid when no heating is required.

    • evleer

      Typo: the 2.6kW in the above text should read 26kW of course.

    • Robert Mockan

      You are describing a situation I’ve looked at also. What puzzles is that Rossi must realize the numbers for his E-Cat just do not work for many, if not most, people in mild to hot climates. I still question are the E-Cat specifications accurate? For example, why is it designed to use high grade power (electricity) for the input, if it is thermally activated and sustained? For control purpose, or because there are internal features that only work with electricity to power them? If it is thermally activated and sustained, the internal heat generated should be used to sustain it, that would essentially make it self sustaining. Yet, Rossi has said it can operate in self sustaining mode. So why say a COP of 6? And is that 24/7 or just for a short time every few hours?

      There still seem to be incredibly misleading statements being made about the E-Cat specifications in the “news” that has been released.

      • admin

        I think he is designing for electrical input because it is the easiest, not cheapest, design. He says if you had nat gas input, for example, it could work, but there would be more complexities involved such as precision heating of the e-cat and venting. Not as convenient as a plug-and-play electrical heater — but perhaps cheaper indeed.

        • Robert Mockan

          I recall statements like that also. My response was that if he would lower the thermal output per unit mass of the catalyst, that might avoid the presumably “hot spots” in the fuel load that damage it. And if the catalyst is cheap, trading off electrical input by using a much larger amount of catalyst might be the better way to go, because then one is not using high grade power (electricity), that is more expensive than just thermal power from the E-Cat itself, to sustain it, while providing net thermal power out! But without more data I can’t get any numbers to support my hypothesis. If Rossi would be a bit more open and publish an accurate list of catalyst energy generating specification from a national testing laboratory using a differential scanning calorimeter (the standard for doing material analysis of the kind needed), for analyzing it, these kind of questions could have been answered “years” ago! Rossi says he has been using protoytpe to heat a factory for many years. I can understand completely why so many people are still skeptical about what is really going on!

      • Francesco CH

        You assume that the E-Cat requires electricity to get started, but this assumption is wrong: the E-Cat can be started by gas, i.e. tha gas can be used to heat the E-Cat in order to activate the reaction.

        Hence the net gain is a factor 6. This is the result of the integration of the various kinds of the energy sources used.

      • GreenWin

        Um, it’s rather obvious that commercial production means it makes a difference. LENR is proved to produce “excess” heat. Well beyond that put in. If the rossi 10kW heater can produce 5kw heat and 5kW electric with a “fuel” cost of $5/month…

        This is why Zawodney at NASA described at home CHP system as the likely first application of LENR. Add chiller technology and you heat, cool and power your home for $5/month.

    • David R.

      I asked Dr. Rossi if the 10kW e-cat can be duty cycled in a fashion similar to normal tank buffered water heating systems. His reply was yes.
      In the Southeast US where I live a 10kw E-cat would provide all domestic heat and hot water needs for my modest home at around a 30% duty cycle averaged year round.
      Based on Rossi’s stated minimum COP of 6, this would effectively reduce my electric bill from 11.5 cents/kWh to around 2 cents/kWh. The Ecat would easily recover its purchase cost in one year.
      The question is how large a water tank would be needed for best electrical efficiency?

  • abc

    If this device is real then Rossi should just release the data to scientific peer review — freely. People are dying every day and countries are slaughtering each other for energy. Commercializing this thing is the wrong way to go. It can get into greedy hands very easily. What if there are more unforseen problems? An open source project would be able to assist far more quickly. Another problem is what happened to Nikola Tesla — buried and all his documents were stored away at a government vault. I like the idea of that movie “Chain Reaction”. As soon as they discovered the catalyst, they wanted to upload all the data publicly on the internet as quickly as possible.

    • abc

      …then again, all of these delays makes me wonder if he is a fake and just stringing everyone. Just my 2cents.

  • Brian

    So it has finally come to this.
    The gest of this announcement is: Expect to see NOTHING AT ALL untill Autumn 2013. Nothing at all, just Rossi’s tweets, speculation and more speculation.

    All this talk will give us the idea that something is going on behind the scenes.
    It also builds up to Rossi finally proclaiming that his technology was stolen or copied and that he so angry that is not going to produce anything after all.

    It’s a simple magicians routine: keep the audience away from your equipment, and keep their eyes on the show.

    He is expertly ignoring the request to see inside the box.

    With a magician, that’s cool: You get what you pay for. With Rossi, it’s different. He’s claiming his stuff is real but he won’t prove it.
    That means he is lying. He’s not taking anybodies money as far as we can tell. But he’s lying.

    • Andrew Macleod

      If you want to see how it works look up his recient patent application. Just because he won’t show it doesn’t make him a liar.

    • sapain

      been waiting since 1989, seen more on lenr in the last 6 months than in the last 21 yrs. rossi has brought out alot of imformation that`s been kept in the closet.

  • Paul Z

    Defkalion goes DARK just after this statement from Dr Rossi, its pretty clear that Rossi has a mole in Athens and he knows every detail of the inter workings at Defkalion ) what ever happened to the Mig 22 guys ?

    • dragon

      Yes. I will be pretty scared if I were to be Defkalion investor with a statement like that form Rossi: “all the investors who think to make money investing in companies who are copying our patents, both pending and granted, better prepare an army of attorneys”.
      This proves once again that Defkalion got their ideas for LENR device from Rossi, back in 2011. So now, they need to go down/dark and reassess if they can continue their LENR development through Rossi’s attorneys, or that if they have to stop and make different arrangements.

  • Pingback: Andrea Rossi: alla Defkalion provano solo a copiare l'E-Cat - Energia - GreenStyle

  • Duke

    On an unrelated note…

    The transmutation process that LERN creates (changing Nickel to Copper) had me thinking. Would it be too far fetched to think that the alchemists back in the day may have discovered such a reaction? I mean, could it have been stumbled upon? At the end of the day, we have ‘electricity’, nickel or other metals, and some ‘mystery catylist’.

    • Savvy

      People are already talking commercial deals and all the rest of the calculations, as if any1 has seen the tech actually work.

    • Brian

      Yep, it’s public knowledge that medieval alchemists succeeded in creating gold from lead, nickel, mud and other low cost materials.
      However, they were silenced by Big Linseed Oil.

      Such was also the case with Leonardo Da Vinci who invented a real working helicopter. He was forced to change his drawings to a non-working version by the Big Coaches Cartel.

      The car that runs on water: Suppressed. The every burning lightbulb: Witheld. Flying and levition? Common practice until Newton came along with his Law of Gravity.
      Magic and Wizardry was suppressed by Big Physics who wanted to rule the world, and so on.

      All sort of really fantastic things have been invented and subsequently suppressed by Big Something.

      We live in terrible oppression indeed.

    • Robert Mockan

      Alchemists?
      Who knows.
      But alchemy is alive and well today.
      http://www.drjoechampion.com/Procedure.htm

      I’ve had email communications with JC. What he is doing is real.

      Of course skeptics will not believe any of this until the pink flying pig flies over the moon.

      • dragon

        It is not about skeptics… put him to buy 1-2 tons for copper and to make many kilos of gold. than put him to do it again until he can buy APPLE & CO. it should take him no more than a year.
        If he can do it, ONLY THEN we will believe him.

        • Robert Mockan

          I actually think you have a good approach to saying what proof should be. There are 3 process the author claims work, and certain conditions that must be maintained. Phonon resonance, where holding a metal at a specific temperature and using EM at specific wavelength causes transmutation by creating Coulomb barrier transparency, using a growing cell mixture (yeast cells), that produce a “nuclear active” enzyme that can transmute metals, and using a chemical approach that creates conditions of (erratic) Coulomb barrier transparency. They all allegedly rely on FUSION of whole nuclei, and they all require certain kinds of isotope with “hyper deformed” nuclei to work. One condition is the location the experiments are done is important, and after all is said and done, if the experimenter is a “psychic” individual, the chances of success are much higher!
          So what does all this mean?
          Well, I have all of Champions published work, and videos that have been released, in my personal library, and if taken in isolation it is all nonsensical! Unfortunately for preventing life from being simple, I have also found supporting confirmations for every one of his claims in research that has been discussed at many of the international “cold fusion” conferences. And to top it off the supporting claims have been made by scientists working at prestigious institutions, many working under government contract.
          So what to think? And if real why no “official” statements from goverments? And if not real why doesn’t somebody who know say so?
          Good questions. But I also asked exactly these questions when investigating Piantelli in early 1990s, trying to find out what was real and what not. The silence about Piantelli back then was ..deafening! You could have heard a pin drop in the response trying to find out anything. Subsequent investigation efforts did reveal that Piantelli actually did discover a nickel hydrogen process, and that it is the basis for what Rossi is doing. And Piantelli is also working on his process again to improve it and understand it better. So I’ve been there with the questions myself asking is any of this jazz real. After I did my own experiments with tin sheet in electrolytic cells and determined 149% excess energy out in late 1990s i also became a believer in “cold fusion”. So is Champion real or not? As incredible as all the claims are, I am inclined to keep an open mind on the methods he has applied over the years. I suspect there is something going on, and that it is not a scam. But I’m also convinced that the we are a LONG way from understanding what and how it is happening.

    • dragon

      What alchemists back in the day had stable ELECTRICITY input, so they can use it for proto-LENR testing?

  • Dayton

    Hey what’s up with 1200KW/month?
    10,000 watts is 34,000 btu’s. and continuous until you shut down. Continuous heat! The sustain cycle is, from what I’ve read, is not dependent on a changing input water flow temp. If you have a closed loop system not all the energy is lost, but an increase of water temp, in a linear increase, should stay hot and sustain should continue for 6 months especially if heat loss is controlled. I say this device is from the Gods.

    • Omega Z

      It requires 2.6Kw to start the E-cat up. It draws 1.6Kw continuously as long as it’s running. 24/7 for a month is 1200+ Kwh per month* your electric rate.
      I think I understand what your saying, but basically they don’t work quit that way.

      Many on here get the details confused. I also don’t think most people realize how much energy their electrical appliances use which also adds to the confusion.

      If they develop a good generating system for the E-cats, there is a plus side.
      With a closed loop & I’m pretty sure that’s what will be required, You’ll have an extra gain.

      If the generator produces 3Kw electric in a closed loop, you’ll still have use of the hot water that exits the turbine for heating.

      It’s a shame you can’t include a graphic in these postings. A pictures worth a thousand words. Would sure clear up a lot of confusion.

  • Brad Arnold

    I think it is “cute” Rossi is so jealous of his property rights. Instead, once LENR is proven a commercial success, the 800 pound gorillas will start innovation. In other words, Rossi, Defkalion, or any other start up company’s main contribution will be to awaken the slumbering giant of free enterprise and innovation, not corner the market on LENR devices.

    This is much bigger than Rossi – it is the beginning of the race to the stars. Yeah, Rossi will get filthy rich, but if he stands in the way of progress he will get trampled. Remember Prometheus.

    • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

      Ditto! Well said.

    • sapain

      yes, a 16yr old wiz kid can now come along and say, hey if i do this and that by doing this and that, another method is developed and or a better method. that is the true power of patents, they open the thought to the public for alternative methods, leading to improvement.

    • GreenWin

      No one will stand in the way except the mil/industrial complex (Eisenhower) that already does. When IBM copied Apple and TRS and other micro computers they had loads of patents. Did they stop literally thousands of hardware and software developers from cloning or building their own?? Hell, it just fed the frenzy. The underlying production of energy in this phenomenon cannot be patented – preventing any one or other from “cornering” even a small part of the technology.

      Millions of people will be employed in the development and roll out of LENR. Billions will benefit from improved living conditions. Rossi should and will defend his implementation from poachers, thieves and industrial espionage.

  • Omega Z

    People’s perceptions of the E-cat & what it really is are 2 different things at this time.

    Details are everything. 1200 sq. ft. Home plus 600 basement. Single pane windows. Walls uninsulated. R-11 in ceiling high Efficiency Nat. Gas furnace & A/C. Average month heat bill $135 + $6 on demand water heater. $141 total
    Preparing to put R-26 in walls, R-50 in ceiling, & double pane insulated glass. Should reduce heating cost 40% plus. Looking at about $90 a month or less.

    10Kw E-cat COP6. Draws 1.66Kwh. 24/7=730 hours(month)
    1.66Kwh*730=1211.8Kwh times 12 cents per Kwh=$145.41

    I’m not buying an E-cat at this time. Negative cost/benefit.

    Each person will need a cost/benefit factored to determine their own circumstances.
    If you already use electric hot water heat, fuel oil, propane the numbers may very well justify an E-cat. For me, they don’t. Maybe the next generation E-cat. Have to wait & see.

    The E-cats coming to market first will range 40-80`C.( 104-176`F). Ok for a bath, Probably not a shower if your water flow exceeds 2gpm. You would need a holding tank. Expect about 3 liters at 60`C of water per minute more or less. Hotter equals less. E-cats are definitely not cost effective if all your using it for is hot water/bathing. Even an electric water heater cost about $30 a month verses $140 for the E-cat.

    It could be several years before a home E-cat produces electricity. It will probably be required to be a closed loop water system before allowed onto the market. Many places already have water supply problems which will get worse as populations increase. Using a water reservoir will probably be mandatory. You would then heat your home & hot water from this reservoir.

    E-cat cars. Not for some time. Rather then go through the whole spiel, Will just start with Rossi giving you a 1Mw E-cat. 6`*6`*12` industrial container.

    Throw in a Siemens steam turbine or 2 at 30% efficiency with all 100 E-cats wired to provide their own Electricity, a Reservoir for the closed loop & control panels.(Steam turbines wont be cheap.)

    Combined weight, you end up with a 6 ton vehicle. A loaded dump truck more or less with the power of a 1.6 liter compact car engine. Maybe. Plus $1500 or more for recharge every 6 months.

    The numbers. A 1Mw E-cat at 30% produces 300Kw. 55% of that will be required to run the E-cats. This leaves 45%. About a 135Kw. It requires 100Kw for the car alone. You’ve doubled to tripled the weight. You need all 300Kw to have anything practical. It’s not there.

    The best you can hope for would be a home charging system for an electric car. Even that will be down the road a ways.

    Even for overnight charging will require multiple E-cats. 3 10Kw E-cats linked in series would provide 9Kw, but about 5 of that would be needed just to run the E-cats. I haven’t checked the charging requirements yet, but I doubt 4Kw will charge an electric car overnight.

    As for the numbers I have used to calculate the E-cats electrical usage & cost, I got them From Rossi himself. The 12 cents per Kwh is the rates we pay where I live. They may very where you live. More or less. I’ve read that at peek times, it can cost up to 42 cents Per Kwh in California. Wind & solar aren’t cheap energy.

    We can hope that as they better understand the process in the E-cats, they will drastically improve. As these E-cats provide a market for smaller steam turbines, we should see some technological advances in these areas. As of now, most turbine research has been geared towards bigger.

    As for solid state Thermal/electric conversion, your looking at single digit percentages & expensive. Maybe will see some major advances with the E-cat in the market. Some research looks promising.

    As for Open Source. It sounds good, but it’s not. Before anyone invests 10′s of millions in research to produce efficient small scale steam turbines, there will have to be a standard. This isn’t software. It requires expensive metals at tight tolerances & specs & high tech machines to produce them in mass. A blade coming off at hundreds or thousands of RPM are deadly.

    I don’t post this to discourage people. Just giving you some info to work with. In time they may figure out how to scale up the power & scale down the size to the point they can run a car. Rossi seems certain of a COP6. Maybe in time they will figure out away to reach COP10. Maybe they’ll find away to reach 45 to 50% efficient steam turbines at small scale & 15 to 20% thermal/electrics to be combined. Time will tell…

    • Lu

      Great Post. You’ve obviously done your homework. May I ask, what is your background?

      I’ve been saying some of this for quite a while now, especially “Each person will need a cost/benefit factored to determine their own circumstances.” Unfortunately many people don’t realize the actual benefits, the difficulty and expense in installing an E-Cat, and how difficult it will be to produce electricity from heat at the consumer level.

      It’s also a big ‘if’ as well. I’m still hopeful because it will be a revolution in energy and it’s a great story.

      • Omega Z

        Lu

        I could tell you, But then I’d have to shoot you..
        Just Kidding.
        Ever heard the old saying.
        Jack of all Trades, Master of None.
        Don’t mean to brag, But I mastered many.
        I have an extremely varied background. If I listed all of it you wouldn’t believe me.
        Oh! And sometimes I make mistakes. Hate when that happens.

        I’ll say one thing about the E-cat.
        It seems very simple.
        The Details. It’s extremely complicated. If it weren’t, we would of had them 20 years ago.

        Another thing, If Rossi had nothing, why would he be so Paranoid someone is going to steal it???

        • Lu

          If he had nothing then he’d be protective that someone would find out and ruin his scam. What better ruse then to act paranoid? I’m not saying it is a ruse.

    • wolfgang gaerber

      It depends by a high degree on the thermal capacity and control of the entire system.
      An electric 100 litre boiler consumes about 1kw/h per day keeping the water at 60 degree celsius.
      If there is a “standby” mode with the e-cat – and I assume so – otherwise it wouldn´t pay off as mentioned in your post.
      In this standby mode – the goal would be to have pre-heated water on demand at a temperature – which would be easy to enter “COP 6″ mode.
      To maintain 2gpm hot water – you would need about 15kW – so its just a matter of reservoir size.
      Anyway, if there is a standby mode – the cost for hot water on demand should be lower than with traditional energy.
      If you need only 1 gallon hot water within a week, it wouldn´t pay off.
      For heating season, 6kW 7/24 for 4 month should be enough. Assuming COP=6 – this would mean a steady electrical load of 1kW and about 3000kwh electrical control energy.
      Depending on the weather – I would even assume >>2000kwh – which would be less than a quarter of my actual costs.
      Assuming a setup with 6kW thermal and 3kW electric by-product energy – even with a COP=6 – there would be a steady production of >1.5kW which could be sourced to the grid 24/7, 4 month during heating period, covering the electrical demand during winter season and giving some credit in summer.
      Keeping in mind that AR is applying for a system for heating and cooling……
      Basically it´s too early to have a consistent figure.
      If we think about LENR powered cars,the heat/power conversion ratio is not too different.
      A car which delivers 100kW power to the drive shaft has a similar thermal output. Efficient gas turbines operating up to 600deg celsius might achieve 60% efficiency.
      Well, there would be some significant inertia due to the high cost and effort to develop such turbine – but compared to the complexity of modern motor managment, pistons, moving parts, tubing…. a gas turbine might be somewhat simple system.
      rgds.

      • Lu

        “If there is a “standby” mode with the e-cat”

        There isn’t. It may or may not pay off depending on use and what it is replacing.

        By the way, interestingly just today Rossi claiming the E-Cat is now using 1.2 Kwh/h on the average and not 1.67 Kwh/h which a COP of 6 indicates. This would be a COP of over 8. Not sure if one of us is making a mistake here but he is pretty clear in a recent blog post.

        • Omega Z

          From what I understand, the E-cat runs or it doesn’t. If you don’t need the heat you need to divert it & dump the heat.

          Rossi has always been a stickler with COP6. I hope your right on the COP8.

          I figured Rossi would stick with the COP6 until he was sure he could do better. Personally I figured it could eventually be improved. COP10 would be great if they can get it there. Then were talking.

          IF you can reach COP10 it becomes many times more feasible to daisy chain 2 or 3 E-cats for self sustaining leaving plenty of capacity to actually run your electric. This may be doable.

          It then comes down to what the steam turbines cost whether the cost/benefit pans out.

          I still think the turbines will be a problem thou, because of the small scale & cost.

          • GreenWin

            Keep in mind the MIT demonstrations use Sterling engines to generate electric. Not all that efficient but hey, if the fuel cost is negligible and the heat is continuous – efficiency is not the sole issue.

    • Ti57-2

      To make a fair comparison between heating modes, you need to use the total energy provided as the cost estimation basis.
      Your heating computation assumes that the e-cat provides 730h*10kw=7300kwh per month, so let’s assume that this is the need.

      To provide the same energy, you would need approximately 730 m³ of gas.
      Here in Europe, gas costs around 0.5€ per cubic meter, that gives a 375€ bill.
      Assuming a 0.2€/kwh electricity price, COP6 e-cat would be 1211.8*0.2€, that gives a 242€ electricity bill.
      Make the computation with your energy rates, there’s probably always an edge for a COP6 machine.

      • wolfgang gaerber

        Another assumption would be that the COP might vary with the amount of load.
        To sum up the situation – COP is a tradeoff with safety, power consumption and thermal capacity.
        If there are additional ways found to control the effect, COP might increase dramatically.

    • Jason

      A decade ago I replaced all of my windows with douple glazed thermopane. I have R80 i the cieling and R30 in the walls. I did a good job of weather stripping. My heating bill was reduced by 2/3rds and my winter electric bill was halved.

      • dragon

        Insulation is less important than electricity production. Insulation can do only one thing, while electricity can do thousands.

      • sapain

        adding a passive solar wall will crank up ur savings, add a few black copper or plastic pipes for water heating.

  • http://www.neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    It’s true Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity with a key on a kite string.

    At least he gave it a name.

    Unfortunately he didn’t make a penny and risked his own electrocution.

    Edison was the one of the early individuals
    to be in the time and place and have enough
    profit from electricity with his devices.
    Even so his inventions used outsourced component parts and materials.

    So to patent cold fusion no but patent inventions and devices that make practical use of the phenomenon with a particular defined value added method and materials yes.

  • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

    What intellectual property?

    Okay; I believe wholeheartedly that LENR reactions are the bases of all future energy, so hear me out.

    Let’s pretend a company like Defkalion came along and turned out to be legitimate. They could generate heat above what Andrea Rossi can.

    I think whoever can keep this temperature stable at the highest energy level obviously has a clearer understanding of the process and has the best reaction.

    With all of Andrea Rossi’s name calling (snakes, etc.) he really has not proved he even has an ecat that works.

    Let’s pretend that he does have an ecat. Would he have enough proof of that to stand up in court? He has not satisfied the sceptics at NASA even who know LENR exists.

    As far as the world knows he has a product that can emain stable for 18 hours. I think that was his longest public demonstration. NASA said they would need to see a demo for a minimum of 48 hours to rule out other fuels.

    I think Andrea Rossi is a hero. I see zero scam scenario because people forget Dr. Rossi has a past with sponsoring formula 3 raace teams and dealing with President Carter at the White House. He has been rich more than a few times.

    Dr. Rossi can command a 6 digit salary with his work history and various patents. Knowing this why would he work 5 years with zero pay on this project of the heart. We were not introduced to this until he felt it worthy in January 2011. He has also refused investors and despite the fact he is now incorporated, I highly doubt his company is public or has lost controlling interest. I think his statements in that regard were to steer away from the idiocy of Dick Smith who endorses the belief that LENR is a result of wrong wiring. I don’t blame Rossi for dsicouraging him.

    Legally though I don’t see much hope for Rossi. Someone can walk out of the woodwork with a better understanding and kick his butt. I believe he has to prove stability for legal reasons.

    Now as far as the black market goes. Let us look at the ecat reactor. I have seen objects at my local dollar store that seem more complicated. How many moving parts does it have? $600+ (really?)

    There will be a lot of out of work windmill and photo cell scientists who would probably be too happy to build a few for their friends and neighbors. Is a police dog going to track reactors in the mail? If I had an “illegal” reactor who would even know what it was. I could tell people it was for my deuterium LENR research and who would know the difference?

    I love Rossi. I even hope for Defkalion although I have little trust towards them.

    Above all I love our LENR future which is coming no matter who brings it.

    As it stands I do not feel Andrea Rossi has a legal leg to stand on if someone else brings a similar product to market but demonstrates it properly.

    Defkalion claims their split with Rossi was based on an inability to demonstrate it running for 48 hours. I believe this was true.

    I am as confused as everyone else.

    • sapain

      rossi can not patent fusion, it`s natural.
      rossi can patent the method of fusion, any man made chemicals.
      if dgt has a different method of producing fusion, then they get a patent on that process.
      fusion being natural, no one can claim it, but many varations of method can b. ie. paladium and deutrium method, nickel and hydrogen method, sonic compression method. tomarak hot fusion, laser induced hot fusion.

    • Omega Z

      kwhilborn

      Rossi did file a U.S. patent. Thou they haven’t acted on it, it would give him some legal standing. Especially if he is first to market.
      Documentation means a lot. Even the time line on the internet provides some standing.

      I’ve asked Rossi some straight forward questions & received some straight forward answers. I pretty well new the answers, but from some people’s postings, I thought maybe I had misted something. I hadn’t.

      Want to know what it will cost you to run an E-cat 24/7 for a month. About 1200 Kwh*your electric rate. It will require 2.6Kw to start it up. 1.6Kw per hour thereafter.

      The 10Kw E-cat has been scaled back on temps. They said for stability, but I think safety figures in there to. The higher the temps the higher the pressure. We know some people are gong to mess around with them when they become available. Liability factor. May also have to do with the UL tests.

      Once on the market for a while without safety problems they can scale them back up.

      Rossi has hinted at a higher price then $500, but I expected that. All products cost more initially to cover start up. Robots, etc.. This also allows for down line improvements with little or no cost increases. Still cheaper then a price I seen mentioned on DGT even if the are bigger. $5000.

      If these first E-cats or Hyperion’s turn out to be to small to efficiently produce electricity, I’d rather have less invested then more.

      I could be wrong, But I’m pretty confident will see an E-cat eventually even if it is just a souped up water heater at this time. A small step in the right direction is better then none at all. More steps to follow.

      I’m still hopeful even thou I’ve determined the cost/benefit doesn’t work for me at this time. Negative. But that’s for me. Each person will have to do the math to see how it works for them.

      I hope you noticed the generator they talked about was for the 1Mw commercial model. Would never work on a home E-cat. Hopefully it will scale down.

      • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

        If I had a working ecat device of my own design I would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is a real and controllable thing.

        I would then petition the courts to recognize my patent over Andrea Rossi patent claiming the Italian inventor was patenting an unworking theory he had. I would argue that Andrea Rossi had years to prove that he had something tangible but refused.

        I would argue that Andrea Rossi had a partner organization named Defkalion that left him because he could not run a stable process for 48 hours.

        I would be recognized worldwide as the inventor of the e-cat and have schools named after me.

        Even if Andrea Rossi did manage to patent something here that could stop mass production by another entity, wouldn’t the first superior process (improved catalyst) overwrite what Andrea Rossi patent.

        This was the point(s) I was trying to make. I am arguing that because of his refusal to prove anything it is likely that he cannot. This may be a courts view.

        Marconi is known to some as inventing the radio, but the courts will tell you it was Nicola Tesla. This is a case of history repeating itself.

        The first average joe to prove it will win the rights to it. Andrea Rossi made some futile attempts to prove it but refuses to show anything beyond 18 hour (his longest witnessed test I think) control.

        I wish he would for legal reasons and to finally put the LENR heat argument to rest. Once he has confirmed his idea is a working one then yes I would state that legally he would have a hell of a lot more credence with the courts.

        • sapain

          party A applies for patent, time stamp X, party B applies for patent time stamp X+1. party B proves first and mass produces. 3 yrs later Party A proves and does nothing. Party B will have to pay all monies produced to Party A.

      • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

        I am also sceptical about e-cats costing $500+. I have a dollar store nearby that has many items that look a lot more complicated to build.

        How many moving parts will this ecat need? 1-2-3…
        I guess we need at least one opening to charge the hydrogen? Maybe one to replace the Nickel fuel?

        What else?

        Look at some LENR experiments and the reactors are very rudimentary.

        So if I’ was mass producing this I could’t get the costs down below $100? What if I poured the whole thing out of lead?

        Once LENR is proven we will have BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars thrown at LENR research from governments to private automotive sectors. This science will be optimized and improved a hundredfold.

        They have already produced LENR temperatures in excess of 1455 degrees Celsius and melted the Nickel inside at that temperature. The problem with LENR is stability. Two entities have caimed to stabilize this. Andrea Rossi is claiming about 250 degrees Celsius now and claims his stability is a result of keeping the reaction low. Defkalion might be full of crap, but they claim “burst” energy with a probable start/stop method with 450+ degree Celsius output.

        I like your math, but it is probably too premature to be looking at this. Look at the feasability 2 years after LENR is 100% accpted by governments and Universities. It is very close to that now as LENR tself is real. It is the ability to control it that is in question.

  • blah43

    Price is not necessarily a big hurdle as AR thinks. If an E-Cat capable of heating my house costs US $500 and Siemens charges $600 (or $1000, or $2000), I’ll buy it from Siemens because I trust their brand and will make up the cost very quickly. He should’ve licensed it, if it works, to a well known corporation.

    • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

      You can buy it from Siemens if you like. It will still say “Made in China” on the fine print label.

  • Lu

    I’m a bit perplexed about Rossi not allowing pictures to be shown of the E-Cat until after it is for sale. It takes the Chinese all of one week to mass produce a product based on a picture so what is he trying to prevent? It’s the internals and the UL certification on it that will be what cannot be easily duplicated. Certainly it will take at least one year. It’s taking Rossi 12-18 months.

    I do agree with Kim that nobody here knows what Rossi is up against here so maybe he is doing the best thing.

    • JonathanD

      If someone wanted to Sabotage Rossi’s product, they could produce a counterfeit that looks exactly like his but the counterfeit didn’t work and was dangerous. And they could start selling the counterfeit at the same time that Rossi goes to market.
      But if Rossi has a successful product on the market for 6 months before the counterfeit one, then LENR is more likely to survive.

      • Lu

        It’s kind of far fetched don’t you think? And as I said, I can probably get the Chinese to make a Rossi clone (it doesn’t have to work) in about a week so what’s the point?

  • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

    Dear AR,

    Does your wife still own the patent? Did you work a 16 hour day on February 14th?

    Warm Regards,

    The man who coined the term “clown” to refer to your shenannigans in the first palace.

    • http://www.shake-speares-bible.com psi

      “Charles,” have to admit that I find this kind of remark to be pointless. If you want to talk to Andrea Rossi, please do so. I doubt if posting pseudo-satirical squibs like this improves your own reputation, except among those (like yourself) who seem unable to refrain from offer prejudice as analysis. I could be wrong, but I find that such comments offer little to the discussion. Thanks for your consideration.

      • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

        Of course, silly me. The fact that Rossi does not own the rights to his patent, his wife does, has nothing to do with his fight to defend intellectual property which isn’t his in the first place.

        • JonathanD

          Hey, I would defend my wife as much as myself.

          • dragon

            Even if she drops you and goes with the old rich guy?

        • GreenWin

          Read up a little Charlie. Rossi’s wife assigned the patent to the Trust that oversees the Corp.

  • Kim

    As impatient as I am, I believe that by
    waiting until the last moment and then
    flooding the market is a great idea,
    I guess in the final analysis no one knows
    what Andrea is up against.

    I do know this that these first units will
    have to perform to the letter or…

    Respect
    Kim in Tucson

  • Robert Mockan

    Natural phenomena can not be patented (although like companies trying to patent the human genome, people will try!). Any nickel object at elevated temperature exposed to hydrogen will have some LENR going on the surface. That is about every meteor and asteroid in orbit about the sun that pass close to it. Also there are documented experiments showing that LENR does happen in living organisms. Not in nickel, but activated by a “nuclear” enzyme that evidently evolved to help organisms to survive in the absence of essential nutrients. In life forms it is the transmutation property of LENR that applies.
    But even if a legal case is made that LENR can be intellectual property, good luck trying to prosecute. People will be building their own reactors, with fuel they make themselves if they can not buy it, and use LENR power for their vehicles, that includes their boats and planes. With trans global range process servers are going to need a lot of luck tracking those people down. And forget trying to track personal submarines. Even the military is going to have a hard timne with that.
    So my advice? Open source the designs and making the fuel, sell quality “service” to assist people in building and using LENR devices, and be satisfied with the one or two paragraphs of fame in the history books. Because that is all you are going to get.

    • dragon

      You are misinformed. Apple just patented Rectangle Shape in Europe. Samsung cannot sell in Europe anything. :-)))

      I think the patent sounds like that:
      WE ARE APPLE. Prepare to become an APPLE DRONE. Your culture will adapt to service APPLE. Resistance is futile. We are more important than POLAND. Next… more important than the whole PLANET”

      • Robert Mockan

        Lol! Good luck APPLE trying to prosecute.
        ALL shapes are natural phenomena.

      • Andrew Macleod

        They do have a lot of silly patents don’t they. :)

    • dragon

      be satisfied with the one or two paragraphs of fame in the history books. Because that is all you are going to get””

      that and lots of womeeeeen….

      • Robert Mockan

        They can have the quantity. The quality are more discerning.

    • sapain

      true, u can not patent natural, only method of using natural. if rossi`s catalyist is not natural than it`s patentable ie. many chem compounds r patented as well as the process to produce them.
      as long as the thought is original, useful, readibly reproduced by qualified individuals and has, why didn`t i think of that, it`s patentable

      • Robert Mockan

        And if not original,but useful, readily reproduced by qualified individuals, what then?

        The phenomena was observed, and documented in literature, in 1955, 1947, 1933, 1922, 1918, and possibly 1879. But in each instance the researchers who made the discovery were ridiculed and ostracized until they stopped talking about it, and in a couple instances, publicly admitted they were mistaken about what they thought they observed, so as to not have their careers destroyed. In 1989 Pons and Fleischmann published saying they had also observed excess heat when a metal was exposed to hydrogen (in their instance the metal palladium exposed to heavy hydrogen). They commented that their experiments indicated the heat was the result of unknown nuclear processes.
        And they were ridiculed and ostracized. That was 23 years ago.

        Why do you suppose this is?
        Could it always have been for the same reason?

        Now, maybe, the reason it is becoming public again is because the phenomena can be….introduced… into society…without causing upheaval…and affecting the …control…of society…while…enabling…enormous…profit…to be made…by a select few?
        Not Rossi. Rossi is just the person at the right time and right place who can be…used…to provide the first product…for…consumption.

        If such a fantastic insane conpiracy theory had any merit at all, surely we would know, wouldn’t we? Surely it could not be kept a secret?

        But isn’t it interesting that if people were to accept the phenomena as intellectual property, it could continue to be…used…to control…society?

        Naturally this is all insane. It is stupid to even consider such. What is written here should properly be ignored, and the perveyor of such nonsense never to be taken seriously again about anything.

        Well, I will give that conclusion all consideration due.

        • sapain

          since lern fusion was observered and documented, no one can claim lern, but the method to produce lenr can, it is being shown that many methods r possible to produce the lenr reaction.
          rossi gained knowlege of nickel/hydrogen lenr so he can`t patent that, but he can patent up graded methods, ie. by adding secret catalysist to supply hydrogen can b, this is a different method that is original, reproducable, y didn`t i think of that and useful.
          flight was well known and natural, wright brother developed a plane or glider, well known but when they stuck an engine (well known) on it and it flew, it became original, reproducible, useful and why didn`t i think of that-therefore patentable.

    • J

      Please provide a literature reference for “there are documented experiments showing that LENR does happen in living organisms” and “a ‘nuclear’ enzyme”.

      • Robert Mockan

        Sure.

        One recent reference is:

        Vladimir I. Vysotskii, Alla A. Kornilova, NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATION OF STABLE AND RADIOACTIVE ISOTOPES IN BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS, Pentagon Press, 2010.

        “..presents results of complex experimental and theoretical studies of efffective nuclear synthesis and transmutation of stable and radioactive isotopes in growing biological systems.”

        Another older reference on the subject is:

        Kervan C.L.,L’Existence de Transmutations Biologiques, Librairie Maloine S.A., Paris,1968.

        (Kervan published much work after 1961. He cited previous research in work by others going back 20 years earlier).

        Here is an article from the Proceedings of the 4th International Conference on Cold Fusion, hosted by Electric Power research Institute, 1994.

        H. Komaki,”An Approach to the Probable Mechanism of Non-Radioactive Biological Cold Fusion”, section 44-1.

        I have the above as hard copy. On the Internet there is this site with interesting articles:

        http://www.papimi.gr/biological_transmutations.htm

    • GreenWin

      Er, rossi’s already got A LOT MORE than two paragraphs. Which he could give a shite about. His efforts are responsible for what has happened in LENR since Jan 2011.

      You are right this will catalyze a huge DIY industry. Everything from batteries to steam engine cars will become garage projects. Expect a LENR Heathkit in two years.

  • Matt Smart

    Thousands of orders from the Aegean area eh? I suppose this has nothing to do with Defkalion, but some other happy Greek coincidence for the need of alot of new lenr technology?

  • sapain

    the growl of the ecat.

    • dragon

      The Return of the E-cat… now with English subtitles … unsynchronised subtitles, of course :-)

  • daniel maris

    Maybe followers of the E cat and DGT should hibernate till October… LOL

    Of course, in reality there will be plenty of developments.

    • dragon

      I hope in more mainstream Internet Media developments. Lets see what CERN is saying after March 22nd.

      • http://www.shake-speares-bible.com psi

        That will indeed be interesting to follow. My hunch is that we are going to also get more nuggets from time to time from Rossi – interpret them as you will, he still has my vote as very possibly being completely on the level even if it turns out, as it seems to look, that Defkalion are just “talkers” as Rossi called them (and Stremmenos seems to agree)….seems as if recent events support this interpretation.

        • GreenWin

          Germany and Euro-banks order Greek guv’mnt stifle LENR – or they will tank economy. Believable? Any doubts the Euro-banks are corrupt institutions addicted to petrol-economies?