Rossi Taking ‘Calculated Risk’ Building E-Cat Production Line Before Certification

Andrea Rossi has mentioned a number of times recently that he is in the process of building a robotized production line to build his low-cost E-Cat heaters. He has also said that he is in the process of applying for safety certification for the domestic E-Cats from Underwriters Labs.

A reader of the Journal of Nuclear Physics blog asked Rossi about the way he was going about commercializing today; he wondered why Rossi was building the production line before the certification has been made, since UL may require that modifications be made to the E-Cat, which would mean changing his production setup. Rossi responded,

Good question: yes, I am taking risks, but a robotized line is also reprogrammable for the particulars: we expect some modification, but, as you correctly wrote, if we wait the end of the certification process to start the preparation of the factory we risk to delay . As you correctly said, I am taking my risks, but are calculated risks: a delay would cost more than a modification.

Rossi seems to have a sense of urgency about getting his technology into the marketplace. Until he can start mass-producing his products and selling them cheap, he is at threat from potential competitors, so it is important for him gets his technology out without undue delay. There are already competitive noises coming from Defkalion in Greece. Sterling Allan of PESN visited Defkalion’s laboratory in Greece today and reported that he saw good things there. He wrote,

They showed me the experimental set-up — running, producing heat. It includes a control chamber and a reaction chamber. After the two are run simultaneously — one with the low energy nuclear reaction (aka cold fusion), and one without — showing that the LENR system produces at least 20 times more heat; they will then switch the reaction chambers, removing the nickel and hydrogen from one (cleaning it out to make sure there is no residual), and adding these ingredients to the other chamber, which previously was the “without” chamber; to show that the same data unfold

Allan also reported that, “Defkalion is planning “very soon” so announce the first 18 licensees who are authorized to manufacture and distribute the technology in their respective countries, with an exclusive contract for those regions. Each license costs 40.5 million Euros.” So the race to commercialize LENR seems to have started in earnest. It will be interesting to see if either Rossi of Defkalion will bring their products to light in the coming year.


  • sapain

    rossi is doing one hell of a job, since nov.
    he has opened the eyes of millions to lenr.
    brought out many closet reports of lenr.
    travelled and gained support for lenr.
    finances r growing for lenr.
    classrooms r expanding.
    set a price bar for lenr.
    accellerated competition.
    increased creative thought of lenr abilities.
    not bad for 2.5 months, keep it going AR.

    18 groups willing to give 40.5 million each for liciencing to the greece group is no small statement.

    sterling is a honest reporter and promoter, if something is bogus he will state it and give the reason. curious what the african gizzmo is.

    • Robert Mockan

      I agree with what you said. But we may differ as how independent Rossi is from outside influences.
      I’m not suggesting a path was laid out and he was told to follow it, but rather that a path was laid out, and if he rose to the challenge the path would be kept clear.

  • Robert Mockan

    This is not a DIY forum. Comments here are not about building your own reactor(s). But I am curious what the response here would be if you could buy the “fuel”, right now, in unlimited quantity, costing $5 USD per kilowatt.

  • vbasic

    I think the real story is the 1MW device. LENR devices belong in industrial or power utilities settings, where they can be safely monitored and separate from the public. Especially if later LENRs are able to provide heat enough to drive turbines.
    I’m not sure I would want to hook up an ECat to my water heater or furnace. I would be scared of something going wrong. Won’t a lot of people worry about that?
    I wonder if first adopters of the small ones will be gadgets geeks who will put it on tables to play with their Geiger counters and whatever. It wouldn’t surprise me if many sales will go to scientists who don’t believe in it to find out what’s going on or to entrepreneurs who want to reverse engineer it to sell their own version.

    • sapain

      i don`t want the energy sector to maintain it`s monoply and price contol. individual control over their own power sources is the way. people have become to reliant on one or two to supply their needs, a very dangerous thing.

    • mike

      NO! NO! NO! This must not be under the same old control and manipulation by Big Energy. Big Energy MUST GO AWAY!!!!

    • exploderator

      NO! The correct answer is to MAKE LENR SAFE FOR USE EVERYWHERE.

      LENR has been tested very carefully by many well qualified scientists so far, and we can safely assume that there are no new and mysterious energies here that could go undetected. So far, the results clearly indicate some low level gamma radiation, and zero radioactive residues or energetic particle emissions. This is simple to deal with, it is NOT difficult like heavy element fission, or even high energy fusion.

      We have the technology to absolutely guarantee universal safety of LENR in all possible usage settings. It is a ridiculous idea to not fully exploit this new energy source in every possible setting. The future of humanity cannot afford such fear-mongering.

  • Mumtaz

    I want to see soon the steam trains back on the rail.

  • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    I think Sterling Allan is a reasonably reliable source. He reported what he saw. It might not have been a full test but no one can deny that the test is available.

    I am somewhat surprised at the negative commentary here. The inventors are being put down but if anyone commenting is interested they could see
    for themselves if they are really serious enough.

    I suppose the information should be out soon on some of these licensees if the are ready to begin production. It seems the only question mark is
    the lingering secrecy of these agreements.

    National Instruments is about the only outside company to reveal involvement with these products so far.

    • Ged

      The way Defkelion is doing its tests is highly scientific as well. Since the only thing being changed between the paired reactors is the fuel, we can have a much larger confidence in what we see; as that’s the only changing variable.

      I am curious to see who the licensees will be.

    • Joe

      Rossi and his e-cat must be judged on their own merits and cannot gain legitimacy via tenuous associations with other reputable people or companies.

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  • Kaitsu

    Who can trust Defkalion? They steal the form from Rossi or copy it and break agreement with Rossi. Then asking huge amount of money for territory.

    That sounds like the biggest scam in the world. When they have that money no one knows where they disappear.

    • Gregory P

      My BIG question is why is Sterling Allan being invited to view this device, why not call up a real expert, like Dr Micheal McKubre to view and confirm the demo’s. It gives no valuable confirmation if Sterling says. “Yes looked ok to me”.

      The first project that has Dr McKubre confirming it is real, is the one I would trust has something real and working.

      • HanzJager

        He wasn’t invited. He even states in his atricle that he was on his way back from his trip to S Africa and paid them a visit. At least read the article before commenting such garbage.

        • HanzJager

          Actually everyone is invited to visit them. Defkalion posted an open invite on their forum a while back I believe. ;)

  • Martin

    Rossi is really smart and he is doing it the right way. Only a sellable product can convince people.
    And if this works – Rossi will be one of the richest man in short time.
    -

    • Convince me

      I would already be convinced if a journalist from my mainstream newspaper told me “It checks out.”
      A webshop with an ‘add e-cat to your shopping cart’ would just be the cherry on the cake. I haven’t seen the cake yet.

      This whole production thing is just a smokescreen so Rossi does not show anything for 18 months.

      The lack of substantial evidence does not comply with Rossi’s story.
      Here’s why he should have something to show today:

      He has to start the certification process today, if he wants to be ready in time.
      That means he has a pre-production unit ready to give to the certification authorities.

      If he is building a factory, he will design it around a pre-production device he already has.
      If he wants certification in 18 months, he must have a pre-production device already.

      If his claims are true, he must have a pre-production model already.
      But somehow he is too busy to show that model to a reliable journalist.

      One more thing: Are we supposed to believe that the production of one e-cat takes a full year in the factory? It makes a lot of sense to start selling them when you have the first 10.000 ready. Because:
      + it gives you cash
      + it tells you about possible defects in the first run
      + it saves a lot of warehouse costs

      Are we supposed to believe Rossi will stock one million devices before he sells the first one?
      Makes no sense, which is why the whole factory-story smells like a smokescreen.
      A smokescreen, so that Rossi does not have to show anything substantial.

      Be honest people. If someone was launching a totally new product 18 months from now:
      - would they not have a working model today?
      - would they not sell small batches to get cash, smooth out defects, save on warehouse-costs?
      - Would they not show a working model ASAP, to get consumers warmed up to the idea?

      Instead, Rossi wants to be let off the hook for 18 months.
      Makes no sense, he should have a lot to show today already.
      I have seen nothing substantial. Only claims.

      • Tom

        For anyone not directly involved in the certification process, conclusions on how far along it is and how much Rossi has submitted are negligible. In terms of production numbers and dates all I’ve heard from Rossi are estimates. He might be aiming a little high and a little soon but so he should. It’s hard to wrap your head around selling something you don’t know that works, but obviously Rossi knows something we don’t and we won’t until Rossi decides to show and tell.

      • kryptomaniac

        I think “we’re to believe” that it takes a year to make a factory that can make first e-cat to come off an automated line.

        Where do you get the idea that he’s going to stockpile 1 million before the first sale?

      • Robert Mockan

        All very good points. Here is another.
        “Robots” in factories today is still a bit primitive. It means mostly pick and place parts, and attaching them. Assembly. This is not high tech function, and when you have cheap labor hiring and training people to do the job can be done, not in months, or even days, but in hours if they have any assembly experience at all. I’ve trained people off the street in a few hours to perform machine operations in manufacturing, and in a week they could work alongside experienced employees. In a month they could do almost all tasks except specialized. For Rossi to start with a robot factory, without even beta testing a production sample of the product in the field, is not even bad business. It is nonsensical.

        • kryptomaniac

          The underlying assumption is that humans could reliably do the job with the proper tolerances.

          For example (although apparently it doesn’t apply to the e-cat) robots do pick-and-place of SMD components on circuit boards. You’re not going to train a person to reliably place a grain-of-rice sized capacitor on a circuit board.

          Also, Rossi is supposedly making the factory here in FL. You’re not going to get the cheap labor to do the tasks manually as in India or China. But I believe he’s said he won’t use China for mfg since they would steal the design/’secrets’

          • Robert Mockan

            Assembly work stations at every manufactruing company I’ve ever worked at had a microscope at each station.
            Used for? Positioning and soldering electronic components, regular and SMDs, on pc boards, and for viewing the intricate components of state-of-art electromechanical and electronic products. Why didn’t the companies use automation? They did, when cost effective.
            Every time Rossi talks about the stealing of design secrets, he reveals naivity about the process.
            Does any body really think the government laboratories working classified projects did not elucidate the “cold fusion” phenomena at least 20 years ago? Or that the only reason the technology is being publicized again is now it can be introduced in a controlled fashion, with net benefit to pending corporate interests.

      • sapain

        mainstream reporting, they helped to bag lenr since 1989 and keep it there.

      • Ged

        “Are we supposed to believe Rossi will stock one million devices before he sells the first one?”

        You’re right, that makes no sense. And Rossi has never said that. The -production capacity- per year of the factory is being aimed at 1 million units. Production will begin this Autumn, supposedly, and then they will go for sale shortly there after–likely once the first 10k are made.

        Rossi has a working model today. And likely, the “pre-production” model you are thinking of are a single unit from the 1 MW plant, already built and tested on October 28th, 2011. It’s been almost four months since 52 of those “pre-production” units were made and utilized in the 1 MW plant; which NI has been working with him on since (and where did he produce 52 units from, which were filmed and looked at? Obviously he already has a basic production capacity somewhere). No doubt he has units for testing by UL.

        In short, you’re forgetting your history, my friend. Read back up on everything that’s happened. None of those “claims” you have objections with have ever occurred. The picture is very different indeed.

    • Joe

      He will be rich even if it does not work since it appears he plans on making 1 million ecats and will then try and sell all of them at once. He will be rich long before users can confirm for themselves if it actually produces net energy.

      You are correct he is really smart.

      • Rockyspoon

        He has guaranteed a money-back refund if the purchaser isn’t completely satisfied. How would that ever make him rich; he’d end up in the hole if everybody returned their unit.

        Your math doesn’t add up.

        • kryptomaniac

          If he’s a fraud and they don’t work, do you think he would stand by the money-back guarantee?

  • Brad Arnold

    Frankly, I am surprised that people who are familiar with LENR aren’t jumping for joy that Defkalion is about to have their home LENR generator independently tested by no less than 7 groups, and then plans to published their results – if for no other reason than positive results would tend to reinforce Rossi’s claims.

    BTW, I am also surprised it wasn’t mentioned in this article that Defkalion’s LENR generator heats up to 900 C, hot enought to power a steam turbine.

    • Brad Arnold

      Also, did you see that each of those 18 licensees are granted exclusive sales territory, and the blue prints to a LENR factory that will produce about 300,000 units per year? The Nickel Age is dawning!

    • Jake

      Defkalion, just like Rossi are full of talks, but empty of acts.
      They -say- they -will- allow independent tests. Well, give me a call when that happens.

      • Steve Robb

        You’ve really got your Krivit going this morning.

      • Ged

        The Greek government itself is doing a test of their units next week. We’ll see what happens then. Apparently 13 other agencies are also lined up to test the units; and they will all be given 48 hours with the machines and allowed to use any of their own equipment they wish.

        • Ged

          Clarification: 6 other agencies.

          Look forward to seeing what happens next week!

  • RichyRoo

    18 * 40.5mm = 729mm euro, thats a lot of cash Defkalion apparently have. I hope the licensees did their due diligence.

    • Daniel M. Basso

      mm = millimeter, I believe M would be a better suffix (mega = million).

      Anyway, I wonder how did they arrive at that license price… why not 40, or 41?

      • ratifix

        They said something like:
        40M for the licence and 500000 for the evaluation etc. of the device which is to pay after they agree the device works.

      • kryptomaniac

        mm is finance speak for million.
        m = 1000, mm = one thousand thousands

        • ratifix

          grazie mille (1000) :)

      • Josh

        The latin origin mille is why M is for thousand and MM is for million.

        • http://E-Catworld The D

          “mm is finance speak for million.
          m = 1000, mm = one thousand thousands”
          >>
          Time for Fraudnancier Jargonists to learn science and sense.

          M for Mega is SI.
          mm for million is retarded.

          I eat three apples. I don’t eat apples three.

          I spent 3$. I din not spend $3.

          Quantity-Unit; Not Unit-Quantity.

          $1mm:1M$::Pope:Galileo

          Grow up. Learn High school Basic Science, Basic Maths and Basic grammar.

          • kryptomaniac

            You may think that mm for million is retarded, but non-the-less it is used in the finance world to mean million.

            Check Webster’s New World Finance and Investment Dictionary (via http://invest.yourdictionary.com/mm)

            Careful, your ignorance is showing with “I spent 3$. I din not spend $3.”

            I don’t know where you are, but in America we spend $3, not 3$.

            In Britain they spend £5, not 5£

            Grow up. Learn High school Basic Science, Basic Maths and Basic grammar.

  • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

    There is no evidence whatsoever that Sterling Allan saw anything other than a LENR simulator in action. The only one of the 7 testing groups mentioned in the PESN article was the Greek government, which conveniently will cease and collapse to exist any day now.

    • Ged

      I sure hope not! That could drag down the entire Eurozone. Not a happy thought for the world.

  • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

    PESN> Defkalion has engineered a self-destruct mechanism so that if someone begins tinkering with the device, it will self-destruct

    Wonderful!

    • dsm

      Very hard to believe that they could do that without running into some sort of product laws.

      Sounds more scare tactic that reality

      D

      • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

        My brother is an explosives safety expert at NASA. I’m going to tell him to keep an eye on Joe Zawodny.

    • Camilo

      The “self destruct” mentioned is not an explosive mechanism as the word would imply. Is a mechanism that kills and leaves no trace of the key components of the catalyst in order to avoid copy. That might not be clear in Sterling Allan’s article, but for all of us that keep reading all what Defkalion comments, that is what is referred to.

      • Robert Mockan

        If that is the mechanism then Defkalion is full of BS. Dunk it in liquid nitrogen and take it apart.

        • Ged

          I like this idea.

      • Colin Connaughton

        I don’t see how an equipment like a heater can be destroyed so that it can’t be reverse engineered without explosion, fire, or some serious physical and/or chemical violence. That being so, I don’t see it getting a safety certificate.

        • Ged

          Easy, just dump in a chemical that will react destructively with the catalyst. Say something like an acid that will break the catalyst down. Sure, you can still do chemical analysis and try to reconstruct it–but it will very much slow things down.

          And if the catalyst isn’t a chemical, a simple electrical surge can fry any electronic catalyst (like the frequency generator). Again, it could still be forensically pieced together, but that would very much slow down the process.

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  • dsm

    This link is the real bombshell –

    http://pesn.com/2012/02/13/9602039_Hope_from_Athens_found_in_Cold_Fusion/

    So the questions that need to be asked are

    - Did Defkalion steal Rossi’s IP
    - Is Rossi waiting to hit them with a writ as they get closer to some form of production

    Anyone’s guess.

    Doug M

    • Roger Bird

      I guarantee that the Greek government will NOT honor any writs from Rossi for Defkalion to stop production.

  • http://none.com Rossi’s Sexetary

    Rossi’s automated plants are located in Cuba. And if you see the @&*(&#(@* tell him my last paycheck bounced!

    • Steve Robb

      This sort of kriviting is not called for.

    • Ged

      I didn’t know Massachusetts was located in Cuba!

  • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

    So this is like the Manhattan Project where loose lips sink ships? Nobody working in this organization of Rossi’s told anybody that they’re working on the greatest invention known to mankind? So what if Rossi has to fire someone and they spill the beans to the media?

    • Tom

      If someone working for Rossi came out and said “Hey, the Ecat works!” would you believe them? No? Why would they waste their time if they know their product works and they’ll get a hefty pay-check if they stick with Rossi. If it were a fraud then yeah, it would make sense to spill the beans.