Rossi Now States that 10 kW E-Cat Will Cost Between $600 and $800

We’ve had a few different estimates from Andrea Rossi on the cost of his technology. Last year he predicted a 10 kW E-Cat would cost between $1000 and $1500; more recently he has said that he hoped it could be as low as $400-500 per unit. The latest cost estimate is now somewhere in the middle of that range.

A reader today made the following assumptions that the E-Cat:

1. can be integrated into a existing home heating system
2. has an optional cooling/air-conditioning system
3. could also be expanded with a electricity generating system when this comes available
4. has now the possibility to generate hot water on demand directly or can heat a (+200 liter) boiler
5. the E-Cat is not very big and can be placed anywhere in your house, as long as there is running water, electricity and the possibility to ventilate
6. needs reactor replacement every 6 months or 180 days
7. can be used for desalination
8. is safe, does not omit CO2 and/or radiation and has no other waste
9. costs only around U.S. $500.— for a 10kw E-Cat and around $10.— for a refill of the charge which van be recycled

Rossi’s only correction to this list was, “The price will be between 600 and 800 US$.”

In a post shortly after this one, Rossi stated, “Yes, you can pre-order an E-Cat. You will be put in the waiting list and in Autumn you will receive a precise offer: at that point you will be free to cancel the order or confirm it. The price will be between 500 and 700 Euro, without optionals. The electricity will not be available for the first 1-2 years. The deliveries could start within one year (could, not will).”

There was no explanation what the “optionals” might be — perhaps air conditioning will be a possible add-on. Rossi is still hedging on when the units will be available for purchase. It would not be surprising to me if it takes longer than a year for these first E-Cats to hit the market. A pioneering project of this nature is bound to be highly complex, and unforseen problems will surely arise. But if heaters as Rossi describes eventually become available at the price he quotes, there will surely be many people who won’t mind waiting.


  • http://freeonlineinvoicing.com/ Carlene Lavongsar

    Its a good price for the fuel!

  • Sieg

    I would suggest that any Ecat is sold with at least 10 years of “fuel”. While Nickel is widley available it is controlled by very few companies.

  • Menos

    The E-Cat can mate to a current production 8KW steam driven generator inverter set… see the inverter set at http://www.cyclonepower.com/whe.html If you use deionized water and a condenser tank there is no need for cleaning or adding water.

    • Rockyspoon

      I can’t wait! This has the potential to revolutionize the cost of power, how it is distributed, and how it impacts our world economy in a positive way. (And Cyclone Power has been in business since 2008, so they’re not “bleeding-edge” technology.)

  • Pingback: E-cat: quello domestico costerà tra i 600 e gli 800 dollari e si integra con il riscaldamento | Informare per Resistere

  • jetmech

    i see advertising im outta here

  • Jimr

    I don’t understand how Rossi can estimate selling price if they do not yet have the control problem completely defined. I think they will eventually, but doubt if it is today. At some point in the future I suspect they will have the capability to adjust output between 2k to 10k , but the controls all cost money, even to maintain a 10k output.

    • dsm

      Rossi’s ‘control’ issue is to do with the commercial models. He does not appear to have ‘control’ issues with the limited power units.

      There seems to be various models
      > 1 are almost ‘pocket-pack’ ecats. Small heat generators no water flow required
      > 2 are the home heater units and they do need a water flow to be made so as to collect the generated heat and move it
      > 3 industrial units (the 1 MWatt device)

      Doug M

      • Jimr

        Doug, Where did you find this information. I have been following this fairly closely and have not heard this. Also the 1 meg unit is made up of 300 of the smaller units. If they are stable it should not be a problem.

  • Robert

    Rossi will have to produce something to his potential clients ( me) if defkalion tests are confirmed I’ll take any crumbs other than words.

  • Roger Bird

    More talk.

  • kryptomaniac

    For what it’s worth, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_cooling#Solar_closed-loop_absorption_and_adsorption_cooling)

    Says “Efficient absorption chillers require water of at least 190 °F (88 °C).”

    If this is actually the case, ecat readily supply that.

    • sapain

      i await the day that i can pet the back of an ecat or another lenr machine. firewood is getting old lol

      • Don Fisher

        …and heavy.

  • sapain

    when i first started using solar my first purchase was a 75w panel for $750. people laughed, some smiled and shook their head.
    with this panel and a few wires and a battery i became free, i could listen to a radio, watch tv for a few hours and had lights.
    a few months later i bought 2 more, got a few more batteries and built a tracker and now could watch sat tv for 6hrs, had running water besides using a pail and a computer with sat.
    a year later i got 3 more panels at $550 each and a 500w wind mill. $600 worth of construction material and salvaging i managed to put together a passive heat collector that was 1100 sq ft.
    when i first built the heating system a peron i knew wasn`t a beleiver. when i finished it was -18c outside and i invited him over. standing inside and watching him enter the expression on his face was priceless, i took off my jacket and showed the temp, it was +18c.
    now with a 3 wheel electric trike and a solar panel i can travel over 80kms at 35km/hr ( i am in no hurry, i enjoy looking at the world as i go).
    yes i paid more at first (financial and ridicule) but for the next 30yrs i pay nothing, do not worry about blackouts plus energy spikes and have gained a great understanding of the natural universe.
    i now wait and cheer for lenr to escape so that people of this world may experience what i have.

    • Roger Bird

      sapien, that sounds great, but I could not afford well over $4500 plus I doubt if I could do it without screwing something up.

      But, worse, I heard that over time the solar panels lose their efficiency; something about the top protective surface losing its ability to allow light to pass through. Do you know anything about that? I heard that it was a 6% decline per year.

      • Sparks

        There is some amount of decline over time, but since about 2005 they have been guaranteeing 80% to 85% of original energy production after 20 to 25 years (depends on manufacturer). Also, price per watt has come down a lot, to about 1/3 what sapain paid. However, a solar installation is still quite expensive and not up to grid parity (in costs) except in places where utility rates are well-above norm and sun plentiful (such as California).

      • sapain

        roger bird
        diy system will drop the cost greatly and at the same time u gain knowlegde, skill and have fun. i love scavaging.
        prices now for an assembled 80w panel is around $350 and $4500 up front is not required. start small, a panel or two on a homemade tracker(with refectors to increase gain, watch that u do not apply to much extra light, heat gains lowers eff. and will melt the tabs), learn as u go and then expand at a rate u can afford. u will be surprised at the size in 3-5 yrs of determined persuit. utube is an excellent visual source for information on alternative energy.
        if storage by way of batteries is expensive, an alternative is using hydrogen-a small electrolyser to break h2o, using stacked big inner tubes (ie. skidder, tractor)for storage and a small gas gen in combo with a smaller batt bank. if u r grid tied use the grid as storage but have a small storage system for black outs.
        i have noticed no drop in output in 8yrs and a loss of 6% over a 20-25yrs (solar panels will operate for 50yrs or more)is trival, the cost of solar is dropping every yr as more companies r formed (patent protection ended 4yrs ago i believe), a panel or two can replace the loss. i have read on tech sheets that pv lose eff over a 20-25yrs period but i have not noticed any change in amps or voltage. the best reference i can give is to look up different companies and look at their tech sheets to c the eff loses and then research photovoltaic cells for the cause of loss. it would take a few hours to refresh the memory of cause of loss, it`s been awhile.
        i have multiple systems ie. a 25w (cost $10)panel and a batt to charge a cell phone, supply power for led lighting and listen to the morning news and weather, another to power a fan from the heat collector.the system is designed with a defence attitude so that i can collapse the power requirements into a central area during hard times.
        i too thought i would screw things up, lol, but i took that first step and never looked back. can`t count the number of times i have dismantled things and restructered it.
        my next learning adventure is to practice the art of silicon based thermite reactions using h2 and solar as an ignition source. at a dollar per pound maybe, just maybe i can convert 400 lbs of quartz and get a free solar panels.

        • http://fusion-fria.com kmlv1712

          I really enjoyed your story sapain, it takes courage to get independence. Good for you!

      • http://www.integratedequipmentsolutions.com lloyd bell

        Hello Roger, are you the Roger Bird of Matrix Integrated Systems? If so, please email me ([email protected]).

        Regards,

        lloyd bell

  • Mumtaz

    I trust Rossi work, he is a honest true christian man.

    • Francesco

      I’m not sure if Rossi is a christian, and frankly it is not a must to qualify as a good man. he does seem like an honest sincere scientist but please consider that the magnitude of his findings (along with his collegue Focardi) has implications that are huge … so huge that it should be “open sourced” immediately. that is the true sign of great man, the ability to give to others and share. I am not a christian. kind regards, Francesco

      • Mumtaz

        Sure every one needs God’s conciliation in working on some thing mysterious like this.

      • Rockyspoon

        “Open Source” is a misnomer–it would only allow the big conglomerates to sieze control. Besides, considering the toxic nature and challenging control issues, this is not something the average man should be building in his basement or garage. How will such home-grown units withstand the scrutiny of local authorities–especially if they’re rumored to be “nuclear” in nature (“Cold Fusion”, remember?) and they have no UL approval?

        Look, I’d be the first to say those tinkering in garages and basements are welcome to try, but if a 10-KW E-Cat can be purchased for $600 to $800, who except the eccentric (maybe dangerous?) inventor needs “open source”? I’d rather have a unified front that will properly contend with the opposition, which will aggressively resist their loss of control–and they will resort to all sorts of unethical and political ploys to see LANR doesn’t succeed. Hey, they did it with P&F; what’s so different now?

    • Jake

      It’s based on nature laws (assuming the phenomena is real of course).

    • Alain

      his world citing god, rather make me doubtful, and fearful.
      anyway in my culture, if you invoke God in public (or the flag), many expect : hypocrisy, extremism, irrationality, conservatism … bad experience in history.
      for American, that seems the opposite… other place, other mentalities…
      Here religion is like sexuality… many practices, some don’t but would like to, some are happy without and have other pleasures, and anyway few talk of it in public…

    • Newt G

      The e-cat can fall in the hands of djihadist Muslims, sooner or later.

  • Mumtaz

    It seems to me that e cat can heat a home but the steam produces is small to rotate a turbine to produce electricity.

    • Skeptic

      Sorry but this is NOT as easy as you think. If it was, gas powered micro-generaters would be installed in every house by now.
      Indeed, it is possible to make a small generator, but it needs to be reliable with little or no maintenance and run for 20 years.

      Building a heatsource is a completely different ballgame than building a small, automatic, reliable steam- or stirling electric generator.

    • Alain

      Right with previous data.

      In previous interview it seems the temperature could hardly get above 200C, enough for heating and hot water.

      for cooling, 10kW thermal is not enough, and 200C is not enough efficient with an absorption refrigerator.

      on the contrary Defkalion Hyperion can heat above 400C since the beginning.
      it seems to have been tested for heating, for electricity production, with absorption refrigerator.
      they clearly say that they test compatibility with third party devices.

      However maybe Rossi have made, or anticipate a breakthrough to higher temperature, assuming third-party compatible device, like Defkalion.

      Clearly Defkalion and Rossi have oppositi communication behavior.
      DGT talk when they have tested, and Rossi when he expect something.

      • petesfarm

        This has been going on too LONG-either produce workable units TODAY n release actual videO’s on a working unit. All these news releases with nothing being done is laying too much doubt in this actually working-Seeing tis believing r SHOW ME-PLS

  • Thomas Ammons

    All this excitement takes Rossi at his word. That’s a lot of trust for Rossi who hasn’t let one of his E-cats out of his lab. If Rossi were a fraud he would double down on his lie and make big promises to keep interest in his invention alive. Are we sure this is not what is happening here? I’m not. I suspend judgement till I see an independent confirmation on the lines of something like what Hyperion is proposing.

    • Skeptic

      Agreed. We’re to believe that in 18 months, Rossi has a warehouse with 1.000.000 untested units which are ready to ship. They will have no design flaws whatsoever and do not need any more official approval than an electric toothbrush. (dispite them running on an unspecified nuclear process and needing gamma radiation shielding).

      You’re right: Nothing has left Rossi’s lab yet and when he’s talking about mass production, that just makes no sense.

      • Steve Robb

        We are to believe that in 18 months he will have a facility capable of producing at a rate of one million unit. Every product I purchase has a design flaw in it and the producer rarely corrects the flaw. How terminal the flaw is is what matters.

        • sparks

          No, Rossi has been promising 8 months (autumn of this year), not 18. Factory must be taking form right now, er, somewhere, eh?!

    • Ged

      On the other hand, this change in the price a little more upwards is far more realistic. That brings some of my caution down.

  • Gwandau

    Bruce Fast ans PSI
    thank you for restoring the balance that so easily tends to tip into unfounded pessimism
    when dealing with game changing inventions like this. When it comes to our self-concept
    it seems quite easy to mix up what you think is a sound critical outlook on things with
    a rigid conservative conditioning, just asa well as an overly unfounded optimism.

    Most of us tends to look mainly in that direction that favours our taken standpoint, which
    is the very anti-thesis of a scentific mind.

    A true scientific mind does not have any preconcepts at all, just a load of information ready
    to applicate and evaluate upon the given situation at hand.

    Now LANR, LENR, and CMNS or whatever you prefer to call it is here to stay.

    The big problem here is not wether it is valid or not, but how this new knowledge is going to be
    reacted upon by the worlds leading energy cartels, since if Andrea Rossi is allowed to continue his
    progress, he will inevitably become a direct threat to the guys running the show, may it be the oil
    industry or the power grid.

    Personally believe the greatest threat to this game changer is the fact that Andrea Rossi believe he will
    manage to both create an energy revolution and at the same time get rich. In my opinion this may be his
    fall, since as long as he playes by the rules of the monetary system, his enemies just have to take certain
    steps to get back in control.

    Anyone that believe that you can steal the majority of the market owned by the oil business or electrical
    power plant corporations just like that are absolutely naive. They will have their governments backing them up
    when the rulers realize the threat to the very mon etary system a thing like the e-cat will become.

    If they want to stop him, which certainly is one of their alternatives, it can be done very easily.

    1. Just control all production of the MW-units by becoming the prime buyer. (Is this what has happened with the
    sale of all MW units to one secret buyer?)

    2. Create an increasing distrust in his small unit buyers by making the production plans get postponed again
    and again, as we all know nothing is compared to the effects upon us of a repeatedly postphoned production,
    being unable to deliver.

    I repeat, he is playing a dangerous game with the very guys that have set the rules of the game in the first place.

    So I urge Andrea Rossi to let go of greed and let this biggest thing since the invention of the wheel become
    OPEN SOURCE. It’s a too big thing to risk becoming supressed into oblivion. I has happened before.

    Gwandau

    • Steve Robb

      If he doesn’t succeed at commercializing his device and feels the “powers that be” are suppressing the technology then I suppose he could let the cat out of the bag. In the mean time he should continue on his present course. Personally I despise conspiracy theories.

    • Roger Bird

      I think that this is bull. You can’t make someone go out of business by buying their product, especially a product that everyone on Earth can use and most people in the 1st World can buy.

  • Johannes Hagel

    Check out Vortex for some very interesting statments of Defkalion concerning triggering of LENR in hyperions. This are the most detailed technical explanations I read on the topic so far!

  • Gordon Docherty

    Compares favourably with the cost of a traditional domestic gas boiler for central / water heating here in the UK (typically around £1000-£1500 for the size being talked about) – and they are the size of a washing machine, fridge or single cabinet

    • Roger Bird

      But the long term cost of a (proposed) E-Cat is much lower.

  • Pingback: E-Cat a partire da 500 euro, lo dice Andrea Rossi - Energia - GreenStyle

  • stephaan

    Rossi should know first about banking and money creation systen. In this way he can do a better managing for the spreading of this EVOLUTIONARY EVENT!

  • Rogerborg

    Signed up, I can’t wait to see what happens next.

    I’m particularly looking forward to what happens when a magic box is submitted to the BSI for a smoke (and laugh) test.

    • Roger Bird

      Rogerborg, keep being a patho-skeptic jokester. Soon, either Defkalion (my pick) or Rossi is going to make you patho-skeptics look really stupid.

    • Roger Bird

      It is the nature of extreme intellectuals to fancy that they are superior to everyone else. Rogerborg, skeptic, Craig Binns, Dave, and others come here and think that we are all so stupid for believing that something may be possible that does not fit in with their precious theories, never considering the possibility that we the cheering section were not already aware of their precious theories and weren’t just as skeptical and epistemologically sophisticated as they are.

  • my2cents

    What really is of interest next thing to get clear is if the units can output 400-500 degrees C in stable (constant) manner!

    • Skeptic

      Really? 400-500C? How do you turn it off?

      • You Dont

        You don’t turn it off. You connect it to a Sterling engine generator and spin the utility meter backwards so the utility company pays you. Where I live that pays to the tune of $0.09/kWh.

  • Pingback: Rossi Now States that 10 kW E-Cat Will Cost Between $600 and $800 | ColdFusionBlog.net

  • Brad Arnold

    Does anyone know if the Rossi E-Cat will work with forced air furnaces?

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      Yes, yes it will. You replace the heat exchanger with a hot water heat exchanger. Basically, rather than conjuring up a fire to provide the heat, you put the hot water into a radiator, and blow the air through it to distribute it throughout your house.

      Most furnaces can be adapted, the fire box and heat exchanger are removed. A hot water heat exchanger, a water pump, and some light electronics are added.

      • Jimr

        Do you know of any companies that produce these modifications today. I believe there will be many new companies spring up to supply parts to modify hot air furnaces, hot water heaters,baseboard hot water and even outdoor radiators for excess heat. I question if one 10k unit will heat a home. I once lived in a small home with water baseboard heat, the boiler was rated at 88,000 btu, the Ecat would be 32000 btu.(of course my old furnace did not not run 24 hr/day although the oil bill seemed so)

        • GQ

          Bill From Date Bill To Date
          25/01/2011 22/02/2011

          # Days in Bill Period
          29

          Billed GJ Average Temp
          18.70 5

          Peak Energy Monthly Usage = 18.7 GJ, which is equivalent to 7 kwh of continuous heat

          My gas company Fortis does not have smart meters installed so I do not have the peak daily energy usage which could be be higher than 7 kw per hour.

        • Tom Krieg
          • Martin

            As you’d expect, a car radiator makes a good water to air heater converter, you’ll find a small one in the car heater too, Often both are fitted with 12v fans.

  • Sparks

    Some math: If each e-cat weighs 50 lbs, that’s 50 million lbs, or 25,000 tons of material that must flow through various supply chains per year and arrive at the factory. Those 25,000 tons of material will need to enter Rossi’s factory shipping and receiving department each year, be brought together on a robotic assembly line, and go out the shipping docks. The shipping and receiving alone will be the equivalent of supporting a factory producing about 15,000 automobiles per year (based on simple tonnage of material flowing). At roughly 200 working days per year, we are looking at moving 125 TONS PER DAY of material coming in and going out of the factory (or equivalently, about 83 autobiles-worth per day). This is done routinely by the automakers, but have you seen the size of the factory required to do this? Wow.

    • admin

      I think Rossi has said that each E-Cat is about the size of a portable computer — laptop. Probably a lot less than 50 lbs.

      • Sparks

        That would be a high degree of concentration for 10 kw (for scale, a handheld hair blow-dryer is only 1 kw). I’m wondering about the peripheral stuff, such as water hookup, heat exchanger, and something (cooling fins or heat sink?) for ventilation, etc., etc.

      • Scott H

        The production would be so much easier and quicker per pound then automobiles.

      • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

        He has said 30cm cubed, about 1 foot cubed. That’s more like a stack of laptops about a foot high, or the size of box required to hold a laptop with the laptop’s lid open.

        • ratifix

          Bruce,

          Rossi said in the long interview @ the scare crow show that the size is
          30 x 30 x 12 cm.

    • Steve Robb

      If he produces a space heater like the long steel natural draft unit under my desk that weighs 17 lbs that is 17 million lbs/year or 8500 tons/year. If the factory is robotized and runs 24 hrs/day 350 days/year (you’d be foolish not to) that is about 2900 units/day or a meager 24 tons/day. Such a unit would be simplicity itself. To put it simply I would say it is only a hundredth the complexity of an automobile at the very most. I believe a semi-tractor trailer has a capacity of 45,000 lbs requiring only a little more than one such mover a day. As the units are very small I will guess them to be 1/50 that of an auto and so the factory size might be reduced to 1/20 that of a auto factory. Funny how some people see problems everywhere.

      • sparks

        I stand by my analysis — 10 kW and its dissemination to the heating infrastructure (furnace) will be a significant heft. BTW, how did you miss that I was addressing the shipping and receiving challenges only? There are many more problems, such as the fundamental sustainment problem that was revealed in the NANOR plot of Feb 5. Nobody seems to comment on that (note the step-wise increments in input power each time the NANOR output falls off a cliff — three times, almost predictably). Those who don’t see problems are usually ambushed by them and end up as yet another poor slob who invested foolishly and lost it all, or worse, a dreamer who led many such poor slobs down his fantasy path to nowhere.

        • psi

          And, of course, Andrea Rossi has not seem any of these multitudinous problems which, like hydras, grow new heads every time you chop one of them off, and stand by their specious claims even after they have been exposed by sober reason, and no, said Rossi requires *you* to point out that he is a but “dreamer” who is leading us “poor slobs” down “a fantasy path to nowhere.” Right.

          • sparks

            You are correct on all points, except the “specious points” one. Generally, nice post.

      • daniel maris

        Steve,

        I was going to put forward virtually the same analsysis. Moreover, there’s likely to be more than one line in the factory, isn’t there? I’m thinking they would seek to perfect one line first, so it might be a slow build up to one million per annum.

        With 4 lines you might be producing 800 per day or maybe 40 a day/about one a minute.

        Being kind to Rossi, we might think he has a scheme going whereby the casing is to be manufactured in China…with orders already place, whereas the secret sauce and circuitry will be put in place by robots on a production line and the casings put around that…

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      You wonder why some of us think that Rossi is blowing a bit of smoke. I think he’s really intimidated by Defkalion, and is trying to bluster them back into their hole. I am hopeful that he will come out with a product in a year or two However, I’ll be shocked if he’ll produce them at anything near the pace he’s been talking about.

      • sparks

        Yes, my point as well. Agreed.

      • Steve Robb

        As they say in the Air Force, “Aim High.”

      • Jake

        A more rational reason would be that he’s a liar, and he tries to enjoy the moment as long as he can.
        I bet he has nothing.

  • Sparks

    That mass production factory must be well-along, since it will be starting production (one million units per year) in less than 8 months. Anyone know where it’s located? Some photos of work in-progress would be great. Not to mention, I’ll bet they are getting bids willy-nilly from suppliers. Usually in order to manufacture one-million anythings in a year, it takes some time to get all the quotes in, evaluate their compliance to the written specification, go through various negotiations, and choose a winner. Add to that hiring staff, getting through multiple permitting processes, tooling up (with robotics, no less!), running production prototypes through the line (based on a finalized design freeze on the proven prototype), refining the assembly line and robotoc programming, and validating the QA inspection and release process, and whew, there must be an incredible flurry of activity, deliveries, and courier packages arriving at e-cat ground zero these days!

  • Joe

    Good old cold fusion nothing ever changes. Still a safe corner of “science” that produces results that others have not been able to reproduce.

    “Cold Fusion is a pariah field, cast out by the scientific establishment. Between cold fusion and respectable science there is virtually no communication at all. Cold fusion papers are almost never published in refereed scientific journals, with the result that those works don’t receive the normal critical scrutiny that science requires. On the other hand, because the Cold-Fusioners see themselves as a community under siege, there is little internal criticism. Experiments and theories tend to be accepted at face value, for fear of providing even more fuel for external critics, if anyone outside the group was bothering to listen. In these circumstances, crackpots flourish, making matters worse for those who believe that there is serious science going on here”

    • Steve Robb

      Do you have examples that back up your claims of uncritical thinking on the part of the LENR researchers? If so please post a link to those critiques. I wonder, how were the people who first speculated on the quantum nature of physical phenomena first received by the conventional physics community.

      • h_corey

        “God doesn’t play with dice”

      • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

        I have a link to the LENR researchers — the Nickel + Hydrogen ones anyway.

        http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-
        december-30-2011/

      • Skeptic

        Two examples.

        1. There is no agreed mechanism by which cold fusion is taking place. One mechanism is hydrogen fusing with hydrogen (‘lattice assisted’), another is about a hydrogen releasing energy when it turns into a new form of hydrogen (‘hydrino’) and another is nickel fusing with hydrogen to produce copper.
        Those are very different mechanisms. Yet all three are accepted without critisism.

        2. Cold fusion is always measured in energy output, never in production of gamma-rays or end-products. An energy-spike can mean anything, but in this field, it’s always ‘Fusion!’. Producing gamma-rays, neutrons or helium are unmistakable proofs of fusion, but no researcher reports these. Everybody just reports ‘energy spikes’ as if energy spikes can not be explained by anything other than cold fusion.

        There you have it, two examples of uncritical thinking in the LENR field.

        • Alain

          by the way defkalion it their lates answer, saif that most of
          “heat after death” effect is simply H+H->H2 exothermic recombination.

          however their visible undestranding on the reactaion (multi-stage) let it clearly compatible with “neutron or atom” absorption by nucleus.

          me reading papers and slides, I start to feel that widom-larsen is on the good track. no new physics, using existing observed facts, explaining F&P effect, but also other few strange effects since 19th century…

          anyway should check more with maintream scientists.
          I feel that next nobel of physics will be Widom-Larsen-Srivastava

        • Andrew Macleod

          Just because we can’t explain something doesn’t mean its fake. I guess dark energy/matter doesn’t exist because we can’t explain it, even if we can measure it.

          • Roger Bird

            Don’t forget the Big Bang, electricity, gravitation, love, consciousness, and the meaning of life.

        • Jake

          I recommend you read about Widom-Larsen theory which explains the excessive heat without invoking fusion or introducing new physical concepts:

          http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml

        • MK

          I suggest you google for Widom-Larsen theory. It works with conventional physics. It might not be the complete explanation, but it can explain a lot of observations, including lack of gamma´s and fast neutrons.

        • Roger Bird

          skeptic, those are two examples of your lying or not paying attention.

          1.) So-called cold fusion, if it exists, does not need an “agreed upon” mechanism, and most everyone in the cheering squad for LENR agrees with the proposition that we do not know. All we know is that there is excess heat. The explanation will come later.

          2.) Most cheering squad members have given up on fusion or don’t care whether it is fusion. It doesn’t matter. The only thing that counts is whether we get excess heat. Everything else is mental masturbation.

          How’s that for critical thinking.

          • Martin

            That’s pretty much how 95% of the human race will view it, does it work? Is it safe? and, how much does it cost?

      • Joe

        Some theories remain theory because they cannot or, so far, have not been proven. We have a more than a few claiming it to be a fact absent any evidence even the kind that passes as evidence in courts of third world countries. If it is fact then please provide some formula that can tested by others, this is required for LENR to be considered science and not theory or sorcery or religion.

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      Joe, please do a bit of research before opening your mouth.

      Rossi and Defkalion are mostly talked about because they claim to be pretty much commercial ready. However the list of those who claim to have produced Nickel + Hydrogen cold fusion includes:

      Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory
      Dr. Joseph Zawodny, NASA
      Quintin Bowles, University of Missouri–Kansas City.
      George Miley, University of Illinois
      Piantelli, University of Siena
      Mike McKubre, SRI
      Francesco Celani, National Institute of Nuclear Physics
      Dr. Swartz, at MIT

      (http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-
      december-30-2011/)

      You’re pretty ballsy to be insulting that kind of resume.

      • Rogerborg

        An Appeal to Authority? How delightful, it’s like the internets circa 1994 all over again.

        And how much energy do these wise and venerable wizards claim to have got from LENR?

        • psi

          Yes, an appeal to authority. Such appeals are highly relevant when the position against which they respond are themselves substantially based, on is the anti-LENR view, on authority. Get it?

        • Roger Bird

          Rogerborg, I am sitting looking at my computer screen. You may be tinkering around in your physics laboratory, trying to do cold fusion, but I got nothing but authority to appeal to. My critical thinking involves trying to decide which authorities to believe and which authorities to disbelieve. I pick those researchers (not Rossi or Defkalion) who have nothing to gain and everything to lose and who report excess heat. There are quite a few of these researchers, and they have very good credentials.

      • psi

        @ Bruce, agreed. This is nonsense. “There is no agreed mechanism.” Think about it for five seconds. For thousands of years there was “no agreed mechanism” for photosynthesis. No one even knew how plants produced cellular energy and mass cellulose from sunlight, water,and a few minerals, but they did. This did not stop agriculture. The mechanism of photosynthesis was unknown. This did not stop the eating of nourishing plants, created by an unknown mechanism. This is called critical thinking 101. Knowledge of the mechanism if causality is *not* a prerequisite to the observation of interesting or new phenomenon. If science was limited by such dull epistemological requirements, it would be a dull and backward world indeed. Many LENR mechanisms have been proposed. It is is possible that given the complexity of the proven heat producing reactions there more than one formula is partly correct. But the point is that several are plausible to researchers in the field. Given the amount of money that has gone into this field in comparison to fields like hot fusion it is not surprising that the basic science is still confusing. Given the complexity and known anti-intuitive nature of nano-scale phenomena, the basic proposition that there are forms of nuclear reaction not predicted by classical physics, which was formulated with little or no knowledge of nano-scale behaviors of various materials, seems hardly to be a novel or controversial one. Those who urge the reality that we do not understand the physics of LENR as a basis to heap contempt on the findings that have been made would seem to be Luddites in Skeptics clothing. For my part, real skepticism is welcome. But real skepticism *starts* from some working knowledge of the kinds of evidence cited in Bruce’s posts.