Video: Rossi Talks About Warranties and Costs (Including Money Back Guarantee)

In a new video released by the Ecat.com website, Andrea Rossi discusses the difference between the domestic and industrial ecats in terms of price, and models.
He says that probably the cost of the domestic E-Cats will be between $40-$50 per kW, while the industrial units will be around $1500 per kW. That seems like a very big price difference — Rossi says the reason is because the small units will not be “combinable” because they are trying to go for the lowest possible prices.

Rossi also says that there will be a standard 2 year manufacturers warranty on the domestic unit, along with a money back guarantee if the machine does not meet the performance data that is advertised — which should be a comfort to people putting advanced orders in.

  • http://Yahoo.com John Thomas

    Just give the man a chance to show his product..All of you, both sides of the coin, know you will either be buying one of these units yourself or running next door to the neighbors who did buy one and will check it out for yourself..

  • Joe Heeney

    I found something very fishy on the Defkalion Spec sheet. They claim it supports a max pressure of 150bar,
    To put that into meaningful terms, that equals 2175.566070105 PSI.

    The unit in the picture would be shrapnel if it could come anywhere close to that before it disintegrated.

  • Joe Heeney

    The difference in cost and scale is pure steam boiler physics. The relationship of pressure to temperature is constant. If you want industrial temperatures, you need industrial pressures. Which means extremely heavy duty steam pipes.

  • Allen Perry

    Forget the heat output. I just want to see a finished electric generator to run my complete household needs on pennies per day that runs at least 6 months on a charge and a low cost recharge. Address that please.

  • daniel maris

    There are several ways of pricing e.g.

    1. Loss leaders. Rossi might have deliberately put the price on the E cat heater below cost to attract a huge number of customers and attract media publicity in due course. He could then gradually raise the price to what the market will tolerate.

    2. Cover costs.

    3. Match the price to demand. There would undoubtedly be high demand for 1MW units that actually worked as long as they come in below the price of existing energy generation capacity.

    • Jim

      I really hope he’s not going with a loss leader scheme. I’m thinking he’s matching price to expected demand. After all, if he’s making a million of these, $500 each will generate half a billion. I can see him easily selling the first million as soon as they are ready, too.

      Just in the USA there are 130 million homes, according to the US census bureau.

      I’m also thinking that the parts to the e-cat are relatively cheap, especially in bulk, so $500 for a 10kW doesn’t seem too low to make a profit. I think he’s got it that high just to pay for the factory itself.

      I can’t wait to see what the world will be like in a few years after these are prevalent. The power grid will become unnecessary. New homes will not need either power or gas lines installed, making them cheaper to build. Taxes should drop with roads no longer needing to be torn up to access these old lines. Expenses for heating/ac of public buildings should drop at the same time as home electric/gas bills drop.

      The federal budget won’t need to be used to pay for new power plants. Coal mining will become a thing of the past. Pollution levels should drop.

      Individuals should have more money every month, with no heat/electric bills, and lower property taxes (which also means lower costs to apartment owners which should mean lower rental costs.)

      When someone figures out how to use the e-cat to power a car, transportion costs will drop and bring down the costs of everything.

      Basically we’ll see a huge economic boom where people have fewer bills, products cost less, and starting a new business becomes far less expensive.

      The only thing that could prevent this is if either the government blocks the sale of the e-cat, or if the government taxes the hell out of it to recover potentially lost taxes due to it’s use.

  • Tony

    Daniel 22passi said …
    @ Valeria
    @ Daniele
    both on Vortex that around, your announcement of “bad times are coming” … is on everyone’s lips.
    http://ecatnews.com/?p=1950
    Oh heavens! But what they understood these?!?!
    @ Tizzie
    Please tell your friend to report to those of Vortex who misunderstood in full, that there is nothing itchy behind my words, that has nothing to do with E-Cat, Rossi, UniBO etc. THAT WAS JUST A JOKE TO THE ITALIAN AUDIENCE!
    But can …

    • daniel maris

      Well I wasn’t laughing before but I am now…thinking of all those sceptics going in to gloat-mode, all for nothing. 🙂

  • Tom Krieg

    Am I the only positive guy reading this stuff. We are not at the point of this development where we know if any of this works.

    I will be patient and open minded until there is proof either way.

    • SH

      You are not the only one, Tom.

      “I will be patient and open minded until there is proof either way.”

      And thank you for adding common sense on this page

      • Tom Krieg

        Noted. TY

    • Tom Krieg

      Wouldn’t it be refreshing if a few people could give Rossi some assistance rather then saying “oh my goodness that can’t be done”

      In all the forums on this topic, most of the comments are negative. Help or hinder what do you want to do.

      This is not hot air. We need to pull together to make it work.

      Your favorite cheerleader.
      Tom

    • Paul Richards

      “Am I the only positive guy reading this stuff”
      No, you are not but a great deal of different value systems comment here and as a result there is a degree of expressed denial. Having your value system challenged isn’t unlike the stages of grief.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

      Which is understandable as individuals need to grow through their levels of understanding, most times the process causes chaos. These negative comments reflect this.

      Not forgetting vested interests and their media consultants work this site to dampend the effect eCat may have on the value of their commodities.

      Let us all be aware the skepticism is part of the acceptance process, and be tolerant of there evolving with this concept. After all it will literally change everything.

      • sparks

        You don’t seem to allow for the possibility that something claimed could be untrue. With that belief system, someday somebody may pull the wool over your eyes big-time.

      • webbi

        Why would vested interests be against this sort of thing?
        Would they not quickly buy all the nickel in the world and become very rich?

        • Alain

          LENR won’t use enough nickel to have an effect on nickel effect.
          replacing all energy by electricity produced from hyperion machine, would consume 10% of annual production…

          and nickel is found quite easily, especially if you don’t look for the cheapest places.

    • Frank Foster

      good for you and i am with you . I would still like to see the but but mainstream media take a more active role. After all this is not a small step for mankind. I cannot believe how negative some people are. This must be how the human race has become conditioned by such a bad abused life. I for one am proud of Mr. Andrea Rossi. Even if this does not work to your expectations, at least he is giving some hope and renewed interest in the cold fusion . The world needs people like Andrea Rossi to keep us on our toes. So for all negativef people out there I hope that this can turn your way of thinking to a more positive outlook on life. And if you think you can do better please be my guess and I will support you even if you fail. Because that means you tried.

  • Robert Mockan

    In engineering a product design there are concepts universally applicable that can reduce cost. As a manufacturing engineer I’ve applied the concepts. As a production manager I’ve also worked lean production 6 Sigma manufacturing, and know how to reduce cost with total cost measurements.
    Cost reduction efforts begin long before manufacturing begins, obviously. But an accurate assessment of costs can only be made AFTER fundamental design issues have been resolved. Just a few DAYS ago, not weeks or months, Rossi was commenting about changes in the basic product design.
    It is also highly improbable, based on realistic new product design engineering and cost reduction efforts on the managerial side, that there can be a 30 times INCREASE in cost per generated thermal kilowatt between domestic and commercial products when virtually ALL the cost reduction factors would work in favor of the larger output unit, and both products generate heat using the same technology. In all the meetings I’ve ever attended involving engineering design, if a new product design engineer made the kind of comment Rossi did, he would be shown the door quickly.
    The comment Rossi made about “combinable” is so outlier I suspect that must have been a translation problem. A domestic E-Cat has a heat output that is allegedly going to heat water. Once removed from the E-Cat the hot water is as “combinable” with other water as any water. The domestic E-Cats work as separate units. So what with the 30 times price increase for a thermal kilowatt from a “commercial” unit?

    • Tom Krieg

      I could be wrong but, combining the hot water output stream may have problems with standing wave isolation. Each cell producing power, more than likely can’t be influenced by the wave fronts from the other cell. So, there are possibly two way to resolve this issue; (1) electronically by adjusting the timing (phase shift) of the insisting waveform or (2) mechanically with the equivalent of a tuned exhaust on an engine.

      The little unit would not have this feature as it only has one cell. Rossi said at this point the little unit is not scalable and since I am not there, there may be merit to thi logic.

      Who knows… Certainly I don’t.

    • daniel maris

      I don’t have your manufacturing expertise, but I’ve certainly read a fair bit of WW2 history and know that they could go from design to build in months on complex designs (airfcraft) and late design changes were often integrated. I find it difficult to believe that things have gone backwards in the last 70 years.

      You may well be talking about the most efficient forms of production. But Rossi doesn’t necessarily have to worry about production costs to such a degree.

      • Tom Krieg

        Kelly Johnson is a good example of just that ” can do” aditude. SR 71 & U2 are but 2 examples.

        Excellent point!

      • sparks

        But that was done on very, very deep pockets — emergency government funding.

        • Tom Krieg

          Point is.. It could be done. Image if he had Apple to fund this project.

          • sparks

            Okay, so let’s hope Rossi can take out a billion-dollar loan on his home.

        • Tom Krieg

          Funding, manufacturing, marketing, and yet again another corner on the market.

        • Robert Mockan

          If funded like a “skunk works”, with no bureaucracy, the technology might have been developed 20 years ago, at least. Wishful thinking about what could have, would have, should have been, in a sane world.
          Nuclear pulse propulsion in the 60s, colonies on Luna and Mars in the 80s, space industry in the 90s, space habitats by year 2000, space transportation system built and millions of people already migrated to other worlds by now. For a fraction of the cost of the needless wars and debts that the governments central banks have created with their gambling habits and Ponzi schemes.

          Come on Rossi. You are one light shining in the darkness. Whatever I might say about your communication efforts, I wish you the best in building and selling product.

          • Tom Krieg

            Thank you

          • sparks

            Roger that, loud and clear on the needless wars, central banks, and taxpayer bailouts. Hear hear!

        • daniel maris

          Yes, and Rossi also may have deep pockets. We don’t know. I would say that the E cat heater seems a – relatively – simple product. It isn’t a car or a plane… how many parts will it have? 10 ,20 30, 50? Certainly not the hundreds of thousands you find in a plane.

    • Roberto

      Again excuse me for my english. I think that pointing out the gap between domestic and business solutions, also if the increase ratio can be so far not so accurate, is a signal that there is real engineering work ongoing. We do not know technical issues in putting together reactors, and what making them work at unattended service levels can mean. But for sure there’s a difference. If he had said that there is no gap, it would have been a bad signal.

      • Roberto

        Let’s think: 1 TB sata disk in a laptop is about 100$ (domestic). 1 TB mass storage on a raid FB dual controller disk array can easily be around 3000$ (business). x30 increase.

      • Roberto

        For example, there is no enterprise customer that would accept a multimega reactor array that can go out of service because of architectural SPOFs in the monitoring and controlling system. AR is right when he says that the design (and price) is totally different.

    • Lumen

      TO combine the output in parallel is not the problem, it is to combine units in series to increase the temperature where the problem arises.
      The home units controller is programmed to operate in a specific range of input and output water for safety and to feed the unit already heated water would shut down the unit. Unlike the industrial unit which is designed to increase the input water temperature higher.

    • Jim

      30 times as much isn’t that out of line if it’s a larger more complicated unit. There’s also the problem of fewer potential sales.

      130 million homes in the US alone, according to the US census data of 2009. How many businesses are there that will buy the larger unit?

      Small businesses, such as small restaurants, will likely be fine with the 10kW unit. Apartment buildings with boilers will also probably be fine with those, at least for heat, although the renters may be stuck buying electricity from the grid.

      Really the larger unit will be sold mostly to mfrs, large stores, etc. Sure there will be a huge demand, but there are a lot more homes than mfrs. There’s also the issue that mfrs and stores will have to incorporate the device into their systems much more carefully than home owners, which means probably a slower conversion to the e-cat.

      Personally, as a homeowner, I’ll happily buy the first 10kW unit, and use it just for heat next winter until the generator attachment arrives. Even if I can’t do anything but use it for hot water at first, I’m still better off.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    One thing to consider is that all these plans may reflect a reality that only exists inside Rossi’s head. The deluded can be very convincing until it’s time for them to provide proof, whereupon their record starts skipping grooves in a manner very familiar to e-cat followers.

    • Steve Robb

      Why are you seemingly so desperate to save the “believers” from themselves? Do you think of us as your flock, in need of saving? One of these days I will come have a great breakthrough in understanding your thinking and the mentality of people like you. It will be one of my greatest and most insightful gleanings of the behavior of the human beast.

      • PersonFromPorlock

        Do you think of us as your flock, in need of saving?

        Good Heavens, no! I simply want to be able to say “I told you so” when the time comes. ‘Point and larf’, that’s my motto!

  • Roger Bird

    And this is news? It is just more talk. More talk is not news. It is hot air. When we see more compelling demos or we have confirmation from reliable sources, then that will be news.

    I emailed Underwriters Laboratory early yesterday. I still have not gotten anything back.

    • sparks

      Good initiative! Please keep us posted on the UL response.

    • Tom Krieg

      Excellent, I would be glad to hear what they say.

    • Roger Bird

      I got a reply from UL. They say that they will not comment on what may be under test by them.

  • Roberto

    This makes sense to me. It’s similar in principle to the 1GB mass storage price gap between a laptop and a redundant server raid with backup library.

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  • Robert Mockan

    There is something wrong with the engineering if the difference in price is that great.

    • Tom Krieg

      You have made these before?

      If not how can you say that. For starters, the commercial unit operates at higher temperature. Combining of the outputs may require a synchronization of the pulsed hydrogen which, in turn, may require more sophisticated control systems etc. Regulations may be different. The housing sure is different. The plumbing could have more rigid criteria. Etc… Etc…etc

      Why in the world, would you make such a statement?

      Be patient time will tell. Until, something is concretely defined it is incumbent on us to be encouraging.

      • sparks

        Concrete definition has not exactly been Rossi’s strong suit. Folks on this site have thus been forced to attempt to piece together the bigger picture, especially, whether this e-cat really has legs, or is it in trouble (e.g., unsustainable), based on small snippets of often contradictory information. Mr. Mockan (above) has been providing particularly valuable inputs, having identified strong similarities between the rumored e-cat and a strictly non-fusion process that has been patented by a company called BlackLightPower (which consumes the input hydrogen and then dies off). I tend to agree that the great differential in cost per kilowatt between home and industrial units smells fishy. So “why in the world” NOT make such a statement. Speculation is the name of game right now, by Rossi’s design — that is apparently part of what he wants or he would clear up the ambiguities.

        • sparks

          I had to add, why is it incumbent on us to be encouraging? Will that actually make any difference? Physics will not care what a bunch of internet posters think, nor will venture capitalists. And a lot of people want to get to the bottom of this, one way or the other — there are huge implications for investment strategies, natural gas drilling planners, hedge funds, yadda yadda yadda. So let’s probe away and see what we can figure out from the scraps we get.

          • Tom Krieg

            I suppose your right. From the perspective of greed it is best be properly positioned with the latest information. I, on the other hand, am close to 70 and don’t have those motivations.

            In addition, I would like to encourage development of this kind to improve the world thus, you betcha, I try to promote this stuff. I was a professional bleeding edge technologist b4 retiring and fairly lucky to be in on some fairly good projects. It has been my experience that naysayers NEVER have positively contributed spit to any project.

            What have you done to improve our lot? Maybe I should be cheering you on.

          • daniel maris

            Is it best to beat a child around the head or to encourage them?

            This is about whether you have positive creative culture of the type that created the greats of Athenian democracy and the American twentieth century.

            Clearly it’s not about a few posters here, though we are part of the culture.

            The more you try to put the blanket of orthodoxy over everything, the less room there is for creativity.

            I want a vibrant open culture not a dull, closed one.

        • sparks

          TK, what “I’ve done to improve our lot” has no bearing on the validity of e-cat. But I have to disagree with your statement that naysayers never contribute to any project. I’m a senior-level electrical engineer and my most valuable staff are the naysayers. They are the ones who see the realistic roadblocks and impediments that the more zealous are obliviously missing. They have saved us from bad decisions countless times. They (and I) have saved us from malinvestment by exposing flaws sooner rather than later. And most importantly, as real engineers/scientists, once provided with a response or counter-argument (sorely LACKING with Rossi), they are then satisfied (unless that response fails under closer scrutiny). I work with bleeding edge stuff as well, and have several patents and successfully fielded products out there today. I am quite surprised to hear that you would not have come to value the input from naysayers in your bleeding-edge career.

          • Tom Krieg

            To early.

            Congratulation on also being an electrical engineer.

          • Tom Krieg

            I agree with you but, there is a big difference between naysayers and those that can give constructive critism.

            Most of these comments are so premature as to be of no value. I must admit, that as a vp engineering, sometimes it is hard to distinqish the difference. Time will sort this out. Now is not a good time in the process o discourage the creative juices. Many times you have to give innovative concept a time to breath before you kick the wind out of their lungs if it wrong.

            Therefore, charge ahead Mr. Rossi, may the wind be at you back.

      • Robert Mockan

        In engineering a product design there are concepts universally applicable that can reduce cost. As a manufacturing engineer I’ve applied the concepts. As a production manager I’ve also worked lean production 6 Sigma manufacturing, and know how to reduce cost with total cost measurements.
        Cost reduction efforts begin long before manufacturing begins, obviously. But an accurate assessment of costs can only be made AFTER fundamental design issues have been resolved. Just a few DAYS ago, not weeks or months, Rossi was commenting about changes in the basic product design.
        It is also highly improbable, based on realistic new product design engineering and cost reduction efforts on the managerial side, that there can be a 30 times INCREASE in cost per generated thermal kilowatt between domestic and commercial products when virtually ALL the cost reduction factors would work in favor of the larger output unit, and both products generate heat using the same technology. In all the meetings I’ve ever attended involving engineering design, if a new product design engineer made the kind of comment Rossi did, he would be shown the door quickly.

        • Tom Krieg

          What is the difference between an automated line a a hand crafted line as an example? What is the difference between buying at million part level or a few hundred. What is the difference between complex process control and simple process control.

          And on and on…..

          Why not help this guy. He might just be right.

          • Robert Mockan

            The commercial unit uses mass produced modules. The domestic E-Cat is going to be mass produced, and according to Rossi even in a robot factory. Cost reduction variables are equally applicable to both product lines. You mention control complexity. Your reasoning is exactly backwards if you are using that as a possible example on increasing cost. Each domestic unit, regardless of differences in control design, is a stand alone unit, thus EACH unit duplicates ALL the features of any other unit. But in the commerical system each heat source unit can be addressed by ONE multiplexed control module, with just identical sensors in each of the units. Massive cost reduction! And this does even begin to address the scale factor for reducing costs, if each of the commerical units had a larger output per unit (all in a shipping container?) than the domestic. Larger size, less material volume, less assembly labor, and so on.
            We could go on like this all day. Unless Rossi starts to say things that make sense, even I, that KNOW LENR is real, from personal observation of operational systems, communications with researchers, and from building my own device, will begin to doubt his ability to follow through on manufacturing and marketing. He is supposed to have an engineering degree, and has been called very smart by associates. I am not impressed yet.

          • Tom Krieg

            Going from 20 MW to 40 MW Robert has a good point but going from 10 KW to 10 MW is much different.

          • Tom Krieg

            My 4kW Honda is a little different then the half giga watt plant down the stret.

          • Tom Krieg

            PS
            My Hondas are not scalable and they don’t burn coal.

          • Robert Mockan

            I was not clear. What Rossi has said (previously) is that the MW shipping container will hold a large number of small units, comparable to the E-Cat domestic thermal power output. In fact the first MW module has pictures inside showing that he “combined” the output of a large number of small units with KW output to get the larger MW output.
            Unless he has changed his marketing plan (again!), he will be “combining” the outputs of a large number of KW units to get the larger total output of the commercial unit. This is why I think he made a communication error in the video. He was saying the price difference between the domestic and commercial was because the units were not combinable. That directly contradicts his previous designs. But regardless of a mistake or not, it also reveals he has NOT explained in any cognizant way why the commercial product will cost 30 times per kilowatt what the domestic product will cost.

            What Rossi says is not reassuring to any body listening to him. Like you I will give him time to make good, before drawing any final conclusion.

          • Tom Krieg

            OK

    • Alain

      defkalion propose it’s 25kW unit around 5500Eur,
      about 200$/kW, with high flexibility, high safety (gsm alarm,monitoring), high temperature(415C),high COP(25-30),and straightforward design (H2 2l bottle, classic loading by maintenance).

      Rossi’s idea (afraid it is yet only an idea) is innovative and reduce many cost with smart tricks. using cartridge, and not maintenance,
      generating H from cartridge. not so hot, not so powerfull,not so flexible. no gsm,… less complex safety because no H2 bottle…

      maybe also simply he forget all the detail needed for certification and safety…

      maybe also defkalion is working on similar or better ideas…
      his big units look like hyperion from defkalion, thus the similar price.

      • http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/cold-fusion-a-resurrection-and-an-inconvenient-truth-a-view-from-europe/?replytocom=10913#respond praos

        You got it wrong. Defkalion offers 45 kW for 5500 euros, so the price difference per kW is not so dramatic. As for price of domestic vs industrial device my guess is that indudtrial one is based on existing technology, while domestic uses new technology that has yet to be developed. So it’s price difference between working technology of first generation, and as yet speculative technology of second generation.