Andrea Rossi Talks of E-Cat Surprises

In some recent comments on his JONP website, Andrea Rossi mentions that he aims to surprise with the E-Cat. Some of the recent pieces of information that he has imparted are have been fascinating and it seems to be Rossi’s intention to spark and maintain the interest of E-Cat followers by providing interesting details. As more people pay attention, more questions are posted on his blog, and this has led to a few new surprises. Just yesterday he provided a few more details about the E-Cat that certainly got my attention.

  • The fuel refills for the E-Cat will cost only “a few dollars”. Some have speculated that these refills would be the real expense of the E-Cat — like printer ink cartridges are when you have a printer.
  • The decision to allow customers to change their own refills is based on the philosophy that “the Customer must be the sovereign of the E-Cat.” This sounds like Leonardo Corporation will not be taking a ‘Big Brother’ approach position where all E-Cat usage is monitored from a central location.
  • Battery backup to provide the input power required to run the E-Cat is possible.
  • “The dimensions have been revolutionized recently. The E-Cat will be very small. Let me conserve it as a surprise.”

Not only is the product remarkable, but the way that Rossi is intending to commercialize the thing is very unorthodox. The conventional business approach is to sell new and disruptive products at high profit margins — especially when there is no competitor in the marketplace, thereby maximizing profits. Rossi said recently “We are working on the industrialization and decided a product phylosophy that will surprise everybody.” It really doesn’t sound like profits and financial success is what is motivating Rossi. He sounds like a genuine revolutionary — one who puts the revolution ahead of his own personal interests.  Such a person would be considered by many a hero.

  • Bill

    It would be completely transforming. Nobody would worry about keeping their windows open during the winter, everyone would travel without concern for gas prices… it would be a new world.

  • http://na Rodney

    Just a quick message to try to moderate the euphoria some seem to be going through here. Yes, this is a wonderful invention. Yes, the NASA video seems to remove all doubt about its validity. Yes, it will dramatically reduce all energy costs. Yes it will also reduce CO2 emissions if you are absolutely sure that is important. But basicly ALL it is, is a dramatic reduction in energy costs. This is wonderful all on its own, and it will have the effect, just from this one simple invention, of raising living standards by, for a number, 10%. And yes that is marvellous. But it will not transform the way we live life. The automobile certainly did that. The commercial airliner certainly did. The internet has to some extent also. But LENR will just greatly reduce the cost of energy. Wonderful? Yes. Transforming? Not in my opinion.

    • Ged

      It would be transforming, if it works, for this reason: decentralization away from a unified energy grid.

      An e-cat powering a house means you no longer have to rely on the power company, and rather the power utilities would become a backup instead of a primary. Things like power outages would become far less common as both load on the grid went way down, and people become self sufficient.

      An e-cat could power an electric vehicle directly. It wouldn’t need expensive, hazardous battery packs, and it wouldn’t need charging via the grid.

      The cost for the majority of manufactured products comes not from the cost of raw materials, but the cost of electricity during the production phase. For instance, creating aluminum, which is a base resource for so much of our technology and devices, happens to be absurdly energy intensive. A lot of the US’s manufacturing disappeared from a combination of labor costs AND energy costs. E-cats powering plants independently of the grid, for a much lower price per kilowatt, would make manufacturing far cheaper, and thus products based on all our base resources that require lots of power (e.g. aluminum).

      The standards of living in any nation are tied directly to the availability of cheap energy. The third world would be vastly stabilized and brought up by e-cat generators due to their cheapness and simplicity. This would have a stabilizing effect on world politics, and relax a lot of resource competition (e.g. oil. It would not obviate it completely, as oil is required for plastics).

      A source of abundant, cheap energy like the e-cat can make hydrogen fuel trivial to make. Electrolysis, the best way to make hydrogen, is a pure electric process, and so its costs are constrained by electrical availability. This hydrogen can be used in hydrogen fuel cells, and also in fusion plants.

      Since e-cats are high energy producers in a small package, they would be perfect for spacecraft. Since ion engines at 10x more efficient than chemical engines, yet their thrust is constrained by available amounts of power (more electrical power, the faster the ions can be shot out of the craft to increase thrust). An e-cat rather than solar panels, would allow ion engines with far, far greater thrust potential, making travel in the inner solar system far more realistic and quick. Additionally, other advanced propulsion drives, such as plasma drives, require even more power to be viable, and an e-cat may allow them to become so. Plasma drives could cut travel time to Mars down to a month or so.

      Desalination is a very energy intensive process, which makes it uneconomical in most areas of the world (i.e. third world where energy is not abundant nor cheap). This of course means that many areas of the world lack clean water supplies. E-cats may change this, allowing fresh water to become ubiquitous and no longer such a problem for most of the world. Not only would this make growing crops far easier over the majority of the planet’s land masses, but it would save countless lives who die from water borne illness and dehydration.

      And there’s so much more! What about robotics, where most of the applications for such are constrained by us having very inefficient batteries? Put an e-cat into a robot instead, and now we can do more than we ever imagined; and finally have true automatons.

      See, the revolution is the high amounts of energy produced in a very small space. Something no other fuel source gives. Also, the incredible abundance and cheap price of the fuel (nickle). The applications of such an energy source are nigh limitless, and indeed game changing for the majority of industries from manufacturing to farming. Prices for almost all products are a reflection of bulk energy prices–drive those down and everything becomes cheaper, or conversely, everyone becomes richer from the corporations to the poverty stricken individuals.

      • Chris Thomas

        Hi Ged

        I agree with what you said, with one additional factor. Being an old “fella”, I grew up when coal was more central than now. You said that we will still need oil to make plastics. That may be true, but coal is a mixture of very many organic chemicals, which can be used as feedstock to make plastics. Australia is the Worlds largest exporter of coal, mostly to be used for combustion to produce electricity. That infrastructure could be utilized to provide coal for chemicals/plastics as the need for coal based electricity decreases.

    • Ged

      And again, this all supposes that the E-cat actually works, and works as advertised. Those are big, and unanswered ifs, as of yet! None the less, e-cat or no, we can see just how world changing for our daily lives a small, potent, cheap power source would be.

    • enoughAlready

      I am still skeptical as to whether the product works, however if this does work at a reasonable cost it will be highly transforming.

      Plenty of high energy manufacturing processes have marginal profit margins today because of the cost of energy. With costs shifting significantly downward a plant which melts rubber from old tires for re-purposing could suddenly become profitable.

      Additionally anything which is constrained by weight such as air flight quickly become highly more affordable, potentially changing transportation methods…if you can fly it there for marginally more than shipping via truck why not? With reduced transportation costs it significantly reduces the “economic friction” of distance in the cost of trade equation.

      Secondly, the middle east would no longer hold a gun to the worlds head…instead of the “kids gloves” treatment we must endure today. Suddenly if the money stops pouring in those leaders would either have to modernize their countries or fall back into 3rd world status. It also means that the armies of the world can stand down a few notches with regards to the gulf region.

      Third, countries like Iran would no longer use the excuse of the need for energy from nuclear power as that power would be more expensive than this new source….so the jig would be up for their deception.

      Fourth, this would be a major shift away from traditional oil&gas the current giants and would result in a broader recovery as all industry & citizens (outside of the energy industry) would have immediate and long term expendable income.

      Fifth, I could see major improvements for fresh water opportunities in 3rd world countries and crop irrigation in the modern countries. For example drilling into any salt water formation and extracting the water, desalinating that water with the nearly free energy and pumping the salt back into underground formation. There are literally oceans of this salt water underground, so much so that re-injecting the salt back into that pool would not make a measurable difference in overall salinity. This would result in the reduction of food costs and increases in availability.

      And there are plenty of other opportunities that I have not considered but these are a few that immediately come to mind.

      Again, I remain skeptical of the product claims. But if true this will one of the biggest game changers in our lifetimes.

      • Ged

        Haha, wow, we posted at almost the same time, and in highly complimentary ways! I am greatly amused, and well said on all points.

  • londo

    So, if the refills cost next to nothing and the ecats cost 50$/kW, where are the money. All of this became hyperbole without substance now.
    Why isn’t anybody asking the obvious question, how is it possible to shield 6MeV photon with so little lead. Why isn’t anybody standing next to the ecat dying of radiation damage?
    Is the energy somehow released through many less energetic gamma particles?

  • Steve Robb

    Please elucidate. Tell us of the various characteristics of a scam and compare that with the e-cat story, or are you one of those who can do nothing more than produce mindless ejaculations?

  • Keef Wivanef

    BOLLOCKS!

    • ray

      Sorry for my previous reaction but why do you think the E-cat is bollocks ?

  • john p.

    Contrary to the belief of many ,Big Oil is not shaking in its shoes with fear. Big Oil is watching the development of LENR programs very closely and they already have a plan to maintain the energy status quo. There may be a short time of energy chaos and an economic storm created, but the wealthy will weather this storm a lot better than the rest of us will. They know that the people will eventually trade one dependancy for another and once the governments of the world seize control of the nickel deposits and pass new laws to highly regulate the production and distribution of LENR fuel and those fuel prices adjusted, Big Oil gives birth to Big Nickel and or whatever other elements that can be used for LENR fuel in the future. Control regained,energy status quo maintained, but until then, long live the revolution!!!

    • Lucida

      John, you might be very right i’m afraid. This is how our world works. Money makes it go round. Depressing thought, but fortunatly I can get some relief from the knowledge that at least we will be lowering CO2 emission.

    • Steve Robb

      Just another conspiracy theory that will prove to be worth nothing.

    • fact.checker

      OK, so based on the radio interview, it sounds like the first consumer e-Cat is a replacement for hot water heating systems.

      That seems like a more reasonable goal than a system that generates electricity for the home and provides potable hot water.

      I suspect that it is not possible to hit his price point AND generate electricity. This is similar to the issue with PV systems. For PV, the electronics plus installation plus mechanical cost more than the PV panels.

      That’s not to say that the e-Cat is not an attractive alternative to grid power, but it’s a lot easier to build a replacement for your furnace. A grid compatible e-Cat system has to jump through a lot oc regulatory hoops. And that’s a good thing. You really don’t want an electrical generator that hasn’t been thoroughly tested.

    • Ged

      Don’t worry so much. Oil is needed in plastics, it isn’t going any where and nor are oil interests.

  • Sanjeev
    • daniel maris

      It’s a beautiful dream for sure…

      Of course the economic and geopolitical implications of this technology may be profound. I guess the Saudis can sell some oil for plastics manufacture. But with electricity this cheap maybe non-oil producing countries will simply make the plastics from carbon extracted from the atmosphere and hydrogen extracted from water…

      For the moment though, let’s savour the dream-like moment!

    • Lu

      What a day for surprises. Things are picking up steam, so to speak. Wouldn’t be surprised if it all goes viral in a few weeks.

      Of particular note for me with Aussie Guy E-Cat’s post on Vortex was the statement “2.7 to 2.9 kWs needed for 1 hour to start the home 10 kW E-Cat.” In the US at 120V this means a dedicated 25-30AMP (15AMP at 220V) electrical branch circuit. This is not too bad but will require and electrician for most people and room in their service panel for the dedicated circuit–on par with an electric dryer or microwave.

      • pilatte

        Rossi said : you need +/- 3 kw electrical input to first start the e-cat
        OK but most of the electrical input work to heat the core of the e-cat
        if you use a gas hea

      • pilatte

        if you use a gas heater with propane or butane you don’t need much of electrical input

    • john mccullough

      If this is real then he is in a scary position. The E-cat means the end of electric & gas companies, as we know them. Heat and electricity will all come from an in house E-cat coupled with a sterling generator. Oil demand will drop dramatically because making a car run off a heat source isn’t too difficult with the currently available materials. Powering ships with E-cat is a no brainer. I’m all for the E-cat, but since it is going to knock out several trillion dollars worth of industry, there are a number of people who have a lot to gain by derailing this project. It’s almost as if he needs a backup plan so that if his current system gets derailed he has another one already in place.

      • Scott

        Thank you! I don’t remember seeing anyone else point this out in the forums before; that there are people that may not want/allow this technology to happen. Mr Rossi needs and hopefully already has a plan to release all design information to the world or to a large group of trusted partners if anything happens to him.

        I don’t think anyone believes in the altruism of power anymore…

  • ostap

    People are trying to find an evidence that ecat could be even possible. There are only mediated evidences. While Rossi talks like ecat has been 100% proved to everybody. Isn’t it suspicious? “Price drop! Now our 1MW Ecat is only 1.5 million bucks! Call right now!”
    SHOW A SINGLE WORKING ECAT YOU FRAUD!

    NASA? I bet NASA has researched time-machine possibility and has the report.

    • daniel maris

      Ostap –

      What was previously blistering is now blustering.

      Scepticism died the other night when NASA issued their LENR video. You aren’t expressing scepticism, you’re just gesticulating wildly. Unless NASA have gone into the commercial fraud business,we can take it that LENR using something v. like Rossi’s device is possible.

      SO why not wait and see if Rossi delivers when he says he will?

      • Ged

        The better Rossi makes things sound, the more wary I become. You’re right about LENR, but we don’t know if Rossi’s version is all it’s cracked up to be, we can’t, not until we get our hands on a product or one of the other customers come out from hiding. It maybe Rossi’s fooled himself, and at the actual mass consumer stage things don’t work like he expects.

        Just be wary. The more extraordinary the claims, the more cautiously we should approach, even if we know the principle behind it could be completely sound. A lot of things don’t translate from labs and demonstrations into real world consumption as would be expected (medicinals are a perfect example).

        Still, no reason not to hope or to pray that it’s real and all it’s cracked up to be!

        We will see soon, and I really can’t wait. It is extremely exciting, whatever the results turn out to be!

  • PersonFromPorlock

    Some may find this somewhat familiar.

    • Robert Mockan

      Maybe not the best example, since there is also ample evidence that it was NOT a hoax. For example, people know the Wright Brothers flew the first airplane in 1903. WRONG! In 1896 the Langley Aerodrome flew 4200 feet, for a flight lasting over a minute, at 20 to 25 miles per hour. There is also some evidence that manned powered flight happened before the Wright brothers. Manned gliders were flying at 1880.
      Tillinghast is alleged to have been flying in 1909.
      There are a number of inventors and engineers who could have built such a machine if they had received funding.

      • fact.checker

        Those were modeles, they didn’t carry a person,

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Pierpont_Langley

        The Wright Bro’s really were the first people to create a heavier than air vehicle that met any reasonable definition of ‘airplane’.

        • John

          John Stringfellow flew a powered plane 50 years before the Brothers. It looked like a plane and flew like a plane – for a distance of 30ft. It was a plane. That’s not to take anything away from the brothers’ achievements but they did have a lot to go on. It would be more reasonable to say they perfected the plane rather than invented it. Although of course it has been ‘perfected’ a shade more since.

  • david

    If Mr Rossi is able to produce 1 million ecats a year and sells that at a rock bottom price he will be likely creating a black market in which people will buy one of the hard to find machines and sell it for a substancial profit.
    The 2009 survey estimated that there were over 91 million detached and mobile homes in the US alone. Add apartments to that number and it would be well over 150 million or more.
    I respect Rossi for wanting to keep prices down but the ecat will be so in demand that people will pay more and if this happens Rossi still loses, this time to his own machines.

  • Ed Pell

    Yes, I hope he is wearing Kevlar.

  • Robert Mockan

    Did Rossi really say “the Customer must be the sovereign of the E-Cat”?
    LOL! If he did I bet bottom dollar vested interests in maintaining the status quo of the present energy industry just upped the payment offer for a contract on him!

    Good luck Rossi! You are getting more respect every day!

    • admin

      Yes, that was a direct quote from AR.

  • Raúl

    I live in Madrid. When I look through the window I see the chimneys of two buildings and smoke coming up from them. Then I smile thinking of I will never see that picture again in a few years.

    I cannot wait till this autumn…

  • Ed Pell

    If he delivers he is a hero big time. I think he knows the large corporations will “steal” the product from him. By setting the initial price at a fair value he stops the global corporations from gouging all of humankind. That makes him a super hero.

  • daniel maris

    I’m puzzled that the Big Blue Box E cat should “cut out”. Isn’t it running about 40 machines in parallel? Doesn’t that imply they all cut out at the same time – which seems unlikely?

  • clovis

    Hi, guys.
    Frank, our man Rossie is looking more and more like the chosen one the hero that saved the world from it self,
    Go, Andrea, you de man, we need to come up with a good name and avatar for this hero of ours. maybe the e-catman

    • clovis

      ooops

  • clovis

    Hi, guys.
    Frank, our man Rossie is looking more and more like the chosen one the hero that saved the world from it self,
    Go, Andrea, you de man, we need to come up with a good name and avatar for this hero of ours. maybe the e-man

  • sven

    It will become increasingly difficult to separate facts from fictions, even if we assume that Rossi is actually delivering the ECAT and he is luring on the single most valuable invention of the mankind. With no patent in place, he will certainly not be urging possible competitors to start following him. Time is not on his side.

    This means basically that.
    1) It’s not in his interest to have the technology scientifically proven before he has a releasable product. That will only open up floodgates of money working on competitive solutions.
    2) He would be making claims discouraging others to start, but he does not need to deliver any of them, we are still going to want the product. Those claims would include
    a) a World Wide coverage from day one.
    b) an extremely low sales and operation cost.
    c) a huge volume manufacturing being started up.
    d) a very short time to market.
    e) indications that a very large partner is involved.

    To my experience, people running a business will charge what the market is ready to pay. Entering the market with a 30% lower operating and installation cost, along with the environmental benefits would most likely be sufficient to convince people to switch from oil to the ecat.

    To my experience it’s also very difficult to start up a new technology manufacturing in large scale without having any hiccups. Going from the laboratory style prototypes shown on October 28th to a fully matured mass manufactured production in 12 months is almost more incredible than LENR technology it self.

    If Rossi can’t meet his promises regarding time and volumes and it will indeed take him 2-3 years to deliver much lower volumes at much higher price and only being able to deliver to a portion of the world market, he might however have managed to discourage the competition sufficiently to give him the space he needs to build up his business.

    So bending the actual status of the project might be the “right” thing to do, from business point of view.

    Let’s just not forget that the information delivered from now on can and most likely will be heavily biased.

    • Burt

      very well put. On the other hand, Mr Rossi has delivered what he has promised so far.

      • daniel maris

        Yes,he’s more or less reached each base as predicted. Let’s see how he does rather than heaping disbelief on his claims. He’s talking about getting a million per annum production going by the end of the year. It is relatively simple machine – compared with a car, say. It may be he will be integrating some sort of heat-electricity device which is already in production.

    • James

      Material, machining, and production costs for the core, primary loop, and control electronics would seem to be economical. If Rossi has truly won the Cold Fusion battle many opponents in the petroleum industry, banking, and corrupt governmental agencies will want Mr. Rossi’s intellectual property. Multiply the number of people on the planet by demographic factors and we can only imagine what the profits could be. The distribution of petroleum already defines most of this model. Control and money is the motive.

      There will be profits to be made (With very high margins) on the secondary loop side. Heating, mechanical and electrical goods and services may very well restart the global economy. Some of us with an educated banking and business mind would think that this is a wasted opportunity. Maybe the focus should be on creating products to use the heat source? Maybe we should start thinking about uses for salt peter or other phase changing elements?

      “To resent a man’s work is as old as time its self”

      Rossi’s success would bring heat, clean water, and freedom from the daily collection of those elements mentioned previously. I for one also agree that humanity and the environment is the focus, not a continued corporate noose around the least fortunate.

      Also an assumption could be made that Rossi will open source the theory and manufacturing requirements before he hands it over to those seeking control and astronomical profits. Linus’s OS (Linux) has been very successful and continues to be scourged by those who want corporate control. The open source hardware community is also alive and well.

      “Control the fruits of humanity and you will be the master of the people”

  • Lu

    Regarding operating and maintenance costs, which I assume includes fuel costs, Rossi gives a figure of $1/MWh: “1 $/MWh is valid also for the E-Cat.” He also answered our great OP (Frank Ackland) with “a few dollars.”.

    Assuming a $1/MWh applied to an 10KW E-cat running 24/7 over 6 months, this amounts to $43.80 per 6 months. If we realize that we won’t be running 24/7 (say only 10% of the time) a few dollars is consistent with this figure.

    I think it’s wonderful that Rossi answers questions so readily. I have asked him a few myself but would love to ask him hundreds! I don’t because I don’t want to monopolize his time–it’s much better that he spends it working on the E-cat.

    Still it’s tough playing this waiting game! Maybe I’ll ask him just one more….

    • Burt

      …and some people have to order e-cats from him personnally. Is it to feel important? I would never use his time for e-cat orders when there are other channels set up….

  • Sanjeev

    http:[email protected]/msg61115.html

    This can be a major proof that Ecat works, if the guy named Jones Beene is saying truth.

    One can conclude from this post that –
    – Ecat works for a short time (days possibly)
    – There was a customer
    – The customer is not very happy
    – LENR works and Rossi had a breakthrough
    – The Ecat home is at least a few years away
    – DGT might be the first to launch a home device

    More on vortex.

    • sparks

      Sanjeev, thanks for the quality link. The participants on vortex seem a bit more fact focused, as opposed to the cheerleaders found on this site. More than ever, it’s sounding like years to a productized offering ready for the market. I’m guessing 5 years, best case. Let’s wait and see.

      • Sanjeev

        Optimism is good but investigation is necessary too. We must not forget that Rossi is now a businessman most of his claims are there to promote his business. One need not believe everything.

        It is a positive sign that for the first time someone else has said that there is a customer and that the 1MW plant works, even if for a short time.

        Until now all we had was ‘Rossi says…’

  • Al D

    This is getting better and better. If we think ahead a way to e-cat powered automobiles and trucks, (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880002196_1988002196.pdf) and Stirling generators for the home (http://www.infiniacorp.com/), then what are now gasoline stations could become E-cat power module exchange stations and the tanker trucks which currently haul gasoline from refineries could carry replacement power modules and carry back the spent modules to a facility for recycling them.

    Home Stirling generators could be feeding excess power back onto the existing grid. The grid would then become an homogeneous balanced distribution network for national/continent wide electricity supply. There is then, of course, the economic problem of maintaining the electrical grid. I don’t know how this would work out, but it could perhaps be a monthly bill from the electric utility for maintainance. It would certainly be a smaller bill without a lot of the fuel currently used for power generators and it would be a lot more predictable without the seasonal variations.

  • Martin

    Thanks for the feedback re cost of refills Rossi, keep the faith and do it your way

  • http://yourmobilesite.net Your Mobile Site

    Rossi’s attitude is very much something that you’d expect in these times.

    This day and age, we see people working together through the Internet to overthrow corrupt leaders.

    Currently, the Internet is grouping to make sure the US government doesn’t push through legislation that would destroy the Internet as we know it:

    http://reddit.com/r/sopa/

    Rossi’s actions once again put more power into the hands of the people… the 99%.

    This world might not be lost just yet. When things get bad, positive developments eventually rear their head.

    What’s happening in today’s world will end up in the history books. People will look back on these times and view this age as an age where nature ran its course and restored balance again.

  • Martin6078

    Obviorsly E-Cat Progress ist going on and very fast.It seems me equal or even more faster than the last technicial revolution, eg. internet.I´m wondering if E-Cat comming without mechanical rotating parts,they could maybe shrink like a chip!
    Maybe E-cat becomes so small to insert it in notebooks, smartphones or pads.
    On the outher side if they becomes so high energy density to power a car, maybe an aircraft or spaceship?!
    Future is beginning NOW…
    Best regards to all:
    Martin

  • Steve Robb

    The swamp the market with inexpensive units approach seems to be the best one for something that is relatively easy to construct albeit difficult to understand conceptually. If it was something like an IPhone that requires a lot of investment in the development then the high initial cost to the early adopters approach is more reasonable.

  • daniel maris

    So has he gone from a steam engine to some sort of Stirling or thermocouple (?) device? That could well reduce the size couldn’t it? But then for a domestic use, you would still need some sort of boiler,wouldn’t you?

    All we can do is hope that Rossi has got it right as he has on so many previous occasions.

    • Alex

      I think I remember he had said the first units would not have the electric engine, but that it would come later and be an option. My guess it is going to be smaller than the units we have seen on the 1 MW reactor, to conserve heat in a tighter space. The electric engine is probably going to be the more expensive part.

      • Burt

        With the prices indicated I would not upgrade the thermal E-cat, but just buy a new one for electricity (and of course, also use it for residue heat)