Rossi Provides New E-Cat Details

The interview Andrea Rossi gave to James Martinez of Cash Flow seems to have captured the the interest of many people following the E-Cat story, prompting a number of follow-up questions on Rossi’s own Journal of Nuclear Physics web site. Rossi has been quite willing to answer the questions, and in doing so gives some clarification about the E-Cat unit he plans to launch later this year and his business plan. Here are a few details.

Size

The E-Cat is small enough so that even three units stacked together would be smaller than a conventional 25 kW gas or electric heater. The E-Cat units will need to be connected to electricity and water supplies.

Cooling

Rossi has said that the early E-Cats will provide heat and cooling. Rossi now explains that the cooling will be provided through the use of a steam-driven heat pump.

Distribution

Rossi’s mention of being in talks with Home Depot as a distributor of E-Cat units caught a lot of attention. On the JONP he made a clarification saying, “We are in contact with Home Depot for the distribution of the E-Cat, but until the certification procedures are not completed the deal can’t be struck. This is a work in progress, not a work done.”

Installation and Servicing

It now turns out that Leonardo Corporation plans to use local HVAC contractors to serve has his installation, servicing and recharging team. When a person orders an E-Cat unit, Leonardo will ask the customer for the name of a local contractor and contact them providing instructions on how to install. These same contractors will also serve as recharging agents who will change out the E-Cat reactor cores every six months. Rossi states, “we will give preference to the assistance made directly by the already trusted installer or contractor of the Customer, so that he also will become a point of force for us.” Obviously, the contractors will have to enter into some kind of non-disclosure and security agreement with Leonardo.

National Instruments

It’s clear now that National Instruments are playing a very important role in the development of the E-Cat. Rossi says that the 1 MW plant that was sold to the first customer is being refitted with new control instruments, and the same controllers will be used in the small E-Cats that are now the focus of Leonardo’s production plans.

Not surprisingly, there are many who think that Rossi’s goals are extremely ambitious and unrealistic — and of course we have no way of knowing at this point whether the grand plan can be realized. But Rossi has showed himself to be a man of an iron will with a great capacity to work, and he seems satisfied that the partnerships he has made to this point will enable him to realize his goals. Once again we are waiting until the Autumn to see if Andrea Rossi can deliver on his projections.

  • VAN DEN BOGAERT JOANNES

    Have a look at the e-Cat Site and the article: Belgian LANR patents. You will find interesting suggestions in patents BE1002780 and BE1002781 no longer in force.

    The inventor

  • fritz

    Selling the first MW e-cats to military forces was probably the best choice from certification point of view. Typicalwise, the risk of operating such equipment is completely up to the operator.
    Additionally, if that equipment is operated in kind of occupation scenario – there are even no national laws applicable.
    The goal of certification process is not to guarantee a safe operation. Its just to identify any risk and reponsibility in case of malfunction.
    If you operate a gas heater with hydrogen instead of the certified gas – the risk is on your side.
    If the company which installed that device didnt follow the guidelines – its up to them. If there is a problem with control or material – its up to the producer.
    If there is a general unidentified safety problem with that devices – its the risk of the certification agency (for example UL).
    For a trustworthy product – all the involved parties should be backed up by insurances to cover that remaining risks.
    To positive thing is that even a gas heater – if operated/installed/produces might blow up a house – so the additional risk from an e-cat might be a gamma burst on detonation and some contamination…
    So in the end its a political decision to support that technology and to identify the sustained use of fossile fuels as even more risky than new technologies.

  • fritz

    Risk Assessment

    Because of the fact that this is an almost completely new technology – especially if we talk about “home use” – the necessary “risk assessment” which is part of any certification process might be tricky.
    In the past, huge power plants were mission critical controlled by equipment, authorized by “proof in use” style certification.
    This situation has hanged completely.
    The outcome of the risk assessment determines the necessary applicable safety strategy.
    If the underlying process cannot be modeled due to lacking information on that process – the needed safety strategy would be maximum style.
    This would trigger the need for a SIL3 style safety scheme with redundant electronics, actuators, sensors, alternate power supply/accu for blackouts.
    If it comes to cooling (which would be necessary in an emergency rundown) – there would be the need for extra water supply…….
    A certification process of such style may take 2 years, if you design the control electronics from scratch. Even if you use already certified parts I would assume that such process might take a year – appart of the mass production issue.

  • http://NA David Hagens

    Did anybody every stop one second to think that the reason Rossi and the other guy aren’t allowing the “Reputable” scientists and agencies investigate Rossi’s reactor is because Rossi is ahead of the curve on that game and doesn’t want to become another Pons-Fleischmann, instead of letting those morons tear him apart, Rossi is proving the legitimacy of his work via the commercial world vs. the scientific. Given what the “Reputable” scientific community did for pons and fleischmann, I think Rossi is brilliant for telling those that wish to disprove him to go to hell (In Rossi’s way of course)

    If I were Rossi would I want a bunch of persons that believe I’m conducting Fringe Science or to them, Hocus Pocus to try to validate me….Heck no, they are already a stacked deck. Rossi made the right choice. Rossi will let the wolf pack investigate his invention from top to bottom, only after the market has said…AMAZING IT WORKS! Then Rossi will have the luxury of turning and facing his neigh-sayers and having a good laugh. I will relish that moment and I imagine so will Rossi. I don’t put a fool’s hope into Rossi though, I’m going to wait for his tech to be proven by the market and then validated before I say ALL HAIL!

  • arian

    #
    Andrea Rossi
    January 5th, 2012 at 4:27 AM

    Dear Alex:
    IMPORTANT: WE DID NOT REACH ANY AGREEMENT WITH HOME DEPOT YET!!! WE ARE IN TALKS WITH THEM. MANY ISSUES HAVE TO BE RESOLVED YET. CERTIFICATION, OF COURSE, MUST BE COMPLETED BEFORE WE SELL OUR E-CATS. OF COURSE WE ARE IN DISCUSSIONS ALSO WITH OTHER ORGANIZATIONS.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Jeremy

    Here is the reason why there is good reason to be skeptical.

    If Rossi enters the U.S retail market, he is entering a litigation-happy area. Lawyers make their living on suing other people, and a technology that can make it’s inventor billions in profits is the RIPEST target there is.

    Consider:
    John Q Public goes to Home Depot the first day it’s available and buys an e-cat. He plugs it in, leaves home, and later that day there is a fire. Hecalls his insurance company, who hires a lawyer to sue based on the fact that the e-cat has not been tested multiple times. They sue Rossi AND Home Depot, and Home Depot proceeds to sue Rossi in case they lose. (.i.e, you gave us a bad product)

    Remember, it’s not about the certifications you have, its about what you can prove in a court, assuming they don’t settle for millions.

    Anyways, in court, Rossi presents no certifications, no tests, and so forth, other than these dubious claims. He’s out for millions.

    Now, this is the reality of the American Legal syatem these days. So for Rossi to come out and say he is “in talks” with Home Depot is absurd. He gave em a phone call.

    But the reality is that lawyers will eat him alive in the US UNLESS he can get independent corroboration of his processes. Multiple ones. By very good sources. Not the ones that would stand up to some board somewhere, but the kind that can be presented to a jury AND withstand attack. ONLY then will Home Depots lawyers and other retailers recommend to their board that they carry such a unique device.

    Get real, folks.

    So, the reality is, Home Depot or any retailer in the US would

  • daniel maris

    In case you didn’t know it, Home Depot do water heater installations:

    http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_Water_Heaters&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

    That would seem to make them a pretty good choice for distribution.

    • Rick Eastlund

      Home depot does not do water heater installations, or any installations. they have contractors who do them, and some are much better than others.

  • Scott H

    I really get a kick out of how so many people want so much to happen so quickly. The speed that Mr. Rossi is developing his product is nothing short of a miracle. Not many people could handle the work load and stress that this man is facing. We should all thank god for blessing us with this incredible man.

    • Roger Bird

      Assuming that he is not a crook or a fibber.

      • Brad Arnold

        Compared to the speed America progressed at retooling factories for war production after Pearl Harbor, Rossi is a turtle.

        • http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/How-To-Petition-Government-Online.htm Alex

          Assuming the chamber and the materials are cheap and simple mechanical devises, it’s probably the controlling circuitry from NI, that is taking the most time to produce for 1 million units.
          Home Depot will require Rossi to reach some standard method of certification. My guess is Underwriters Laboratory, more information on their requirements are here:

          http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/aboutul/ulmarks/

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  • jack

    Read up on the Wright Brothers. No one believed them for a few years, but it was to their advantage as it enabled them to develop a better control for flight and hence a robust working flying plane compared to their first plane which was only a proof of concept.
    The same is happening now with Rossi, the more skeptics there are the better because it will delay any major research/competition on his discovery and this gives him more time to get a functional product out to the market place. This will give him enough of a head start to make him a wealthy man. So from that point of view I can see where he is coming from.

    • Roger Bird

      Very good, jack! Skeptics will also keep government from interfering sooner rather than later.

    • John

      The Wright Brothers example isn’t the same thing at all. They had the benefit of knowing that planes had allready flown. Read up on John Stringfellow who flew the first powered plane 50 years before Wilbur and Orville. The brothers were the first to fly a distance with a man on board but there were dozens of others who could easily have got in first and many who were unlucky not to have done it years before. So it’s not really the same. They had a lot to go on and knew for sure it was possible.

  • Lu

    Where did all these skeptics come from?

    • Roger Bird

      They have always been around. Trust me, I am a health pioneer. They fancy that having an incredibly gloomy perspective on life is some kind of wisdom.

    • Ron Van Wegen

      Science

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Take a look at ‘moletrap’ http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2572&page=21. I think they breed there.

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  • Robert Mockan

    It is all about the nickel fuel and activation method. Everything else is just noise. I’ve worked in industrial and manufacturing environments, laboratory environments, and management environments.
    Rossi did not work in a laboratory developing the E-Cat fuel on his own. There must have been scientists working on this, technicians to make the samples and test them, and lots of funding. There must be engineers doing product design. Rossi has not demonstrated or indicated the ability to pull this project off on his own. He lacks the specialization required. We see only him, but behind him there must be deep pockets that funded building the prototypes. I know from my own experiences in business and research that just the fact Rossi answers as many emails as he does reveals he is not the person doing the math analysis neccessary to design, test, manufacture, and distribute a product like the E-Cat. There are not that many hours in a day. There is something not right about this entire E-Cat story.
    And the big question is why has not government come down on Rossi like a ton of bricks? Those of us who have worked professionally in new product development know exactly where I’m coming from on this. New products with ‘revolutionary’ ramifications affecting vested interests in the status quo NEVER reach market without government or deep pocket corporate intervention and control.

    • Ged

      He did have scientists behind him, physicist Sergio Focardi, for instance. Also, the device is not that expensive, but he had to sell his house, supposedly, at one point to finance his work.

      Additionally, this has been worked on for several years, it’s just now coming to our knowledge.

      As to time: he’s already made the device, mass production of it is out of his hands, and he does have corporate sponsors (Defkalion sponsored his work for a time, and now he has Leonardo Corp). So, he should have time in the day to spend half an hour writing replies. Even with my busy work, it’s easy with multiple projects to find a spot where you’re waiting for all of them to finish something for a brief moment, and get to do some writing. And this isn’t even counting private time after work.

      • Robert Mockan

        Focardi says he was consultant only. Did not do lab work. At a minimum a physical chemist knowledgeable of catalyst synthesis procedures, a mathematician with a background in applied physics, a technician who can follow instructions from high brows, lab equipment, lots of computer time researching rate kinetics… making the fuel and activation method require a multi discipline knowledge base.
        Typically that would mean at least 4 professionals with at least 75K each of average wages. 300K a year, plus laboratory space and equipment adding another 200k year. SO to develop the process means… what?
        A half million per year for at least a couple years? Although I would say more likely for 4 years. And a consultant with first hand experience with previous research, that would be Focardi. OK, I agree Rossi could have raised the money.
        But the image being bantered about of an entrepreneur using an Edison approach to develop a method for energy generation that may replace fossil fuels? I still say this kind of technology never gets developed without government approval and deep pocket corporate intervention and control, and thus far the evidence has not been visible that Rossi has the go ahead.

        • blah

          This is all reading tea leaves. If someone like Underwriter Labs certifies the device, or a purchaser provides positive proof, then we’ll know it works. Absent that, we’ll gradually realize that it was either an elaborate fraud or – more likely – not commercially viable.

          • DC

            The statement “More likely not commercially viable” implies it works. More likely is a “clumsy fraud” is the most likely outcome. Rossi has yet to prove anything. his testing methodology is amateurish at best. Yes I am a sceptic. it pays to be one when one researches the alternate energy field. To be otherwise is simply foolish.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      @Robert Mockan “And the big question is why has not government come down on Rossi like a ton of bricks?”

      This has also been mystifying me since it began to become obvious that US, UK etc. government agencies were aware of Rossi and were watching progress. The potential losses LENR technology means to the nuclear industry and ‘big oil’ (or rather to the banks that own them) are truly staggering. There is no way that such losses can be allowed, unless the same interests that stand to lose so much can somehow gain to an extent that more than offsets the losses.

      So far the degree of opposition has apparently been minimal: an obvious mainstream media embargo, and a few very vociferous ‘trolls’ posting garbage on blogs until they get banned. As you say, there is something odd here that doesn’t add up. I think that your implied suggestion that Rossi is (at least now) more or less a ‘front man’ for a considerable organisation must be correct. From his comments it is obvious that National Instruments is now the main propulsion behind technical development, but that does leave the mysterious ‘customer’, unless this is also NI.

      If the customer is a separate entity, e.g., the US military as some have suggested, I can’t see them being very interested in helping Rossi develop the home heater units. White goods are not their core business. Yet Rossi has delivered on his promises (more or less) so far, and I think he will probably come through on the home units too. But to do so he would need all the certification and other regulatory hoop jumping in place by the time he launches his product, presumably at least in the US, in the expectation that the rest of the world would fall in line as far as the paperwork was concerned.

      Which rather begs the question of whether he has already received the nod from the various string-pullers behind Western and in particular, the US government, because they now have their plans in place to capture the technology fully and to introduce it on their terms (i.e., controlled by legislation and taxed to the hilt).

      • DC

        Or perhaps all the conspiracy rubbish you prescribe to is just that, rubbish. I suppose you believe in chemtrails and Area51 too!

  • arian
  • Dave

    Everything Rossi has done with the E-Cat has screamed SCAM. Why doesn’t he allow a independent, 3rd party to test a single E-Cat unit using their own instruments? They wouldn’t need to open the E-Cat or know anything about how it works to verify that it does output several times more heat energy than it uses electrical energy.

    You guys are incredibly gullible if you can’t see that Rossi isn’t acting like someone who has the greatest invention in human history since fire. He would *want* multiple independent tests done. Once they confirmed that the E-Cat really worked he would get billions of dollars of government grants to develop the E-Cat tech into real products.

    • Lee

      Why does he need government grants, not everybody in this world is a leach and has a leach mentality. Some of us actually survive quite well without our mama holding our hand or the government.

      • Scott H

        You’re right Lee Mr. Rossi has already turned down help. with government hand outs there are always conditions. I’m sure Mr. Rossi knows the value of a free entrepreneur in a free market.

        • david

          An important fact that is being missed is that Rossi is taking advantage of the politics. As long as the US government refuses to believe that LENR is nuclear in nature they will not get involved to attempt to regulate it. Doing so would only validate the process to the media. This kind of paralysis by analysis is common in the workings of US politics.
          Rossi has a unique niche, one that the Government will ignore until it is obvious that he either has a product that is going to take the market by storm or until buyers start to complain and press charges of fraud. Until one of those two things happen the Government is paralyzed by their own scorn of the science.

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast
  • Steve W

    What happens if you wait longer than 6 months to have the reactor core switched out? Why can’t you have it done when it needs it- like after a drop in output temperature. A smoke alarm starts chirping when the battery is getting low, why can’t an e-cat let the user know when it’s time to switch-out the reactor core? How long does it take from the first signs of fuel depletion to non-functioning? Can this cause damage to the reactor or are there safety concerns if this happens? These guestions have never been answered. From my understanging it should last 6 months with continous operation, how many people are going to run this thing continously? Everytime you are going to have a professional service technician come into your home, its going to cost you a substantial amount of money just for the service call. In addition, it’s a nusiance to have to set up an appointment and be there for the guy to show up between say 2:00 and 5:00. If an e-cat sells for $1000 to $1500, then the two service calls a year are going to be the main cost of the e-cat. It doesn’t sound like its too difficult to install and service the e-cat since Rossi stated that the person who usually does maintenance on your home can do the installation and maintenance also.

    Rossi indicates that he will be able to beat out any competition on price. If I was the competition, I would come up with a system that allows the customer to safely switch out there own reactor cores like you do a propane tank for your gas grill.

    • Alain

      you ask good question, but with bad mood.
      it seems that defkalion have worked since the beginning on that, and Rossi seems, now, to address too that problems according to his talk on FAQ e-cat.

      changing the kernel should be easy by trained normal worker (no need to be rocket physicist)

      6 month seems to be the time befor :
      – big part of nickel is transmutated (half?)
      – H may have leaked too much , and need to be refueled (some Hydrogen bottle sellers impose 6month maintenance/change)
      – you need to check all the kernel

      by the way, my insurance, and my sense of responsibilities, ask me to call maintenance once a year for my gas boiler/heater, and the chimney.

      it cost me about the cost of e-cat/hyperion announced maintenance (150Eur)

      the cost of a modern condensing gas boiler/heater have been 3000Eur in a medium house (70m2)

      cost of a CHP is around 10-20kEur

      so for me 4500Eur for boiler, as expressed by Defkalion is still an interesting investment, yet expensive…

      1500Eur as e-cat is competitive.
      100-200Eur/y maintenance is similar to gas maintenance.
      but 2000Eur gaz bill can justify to invest.

      • MJS

        The core change out should be easy enough for the home owner to do and should not require a technician. Like changing the batteries on your flash light, this should be made that simple.

        • Eric Charland

          Even Apple fanatics don’t expect the 1st design of the latest new gadget to be all that can be in their wet dreams.

          Just look up the history of steam engines…

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      Y’all don’t understand new technologies, do you. I worked on a Model T once. It was an interesting piece of work. I had been unaware that cars had a mechanical advance on the steering column, or a low speed fuel mixture knob. I have worked on some ancient old computers which required multiple media swaps to get them “brought up by the bootstraps”.

      Rossi is introducing us to e-cat version 1.0, or maybe e-cat version 0.9. Let a couple of years and a million engineers do their work before expecting that your 6 year old can maintain the thing.

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  • Luca Salvarani

    1-There are only two things I don’t understand:
    1)Is possible for Rossi to make all the controls, tests.. eccetera for cercifications in only few months (for example has he empirically checked that the final e-cat he will sell has an autonomy of at least 6 months…)? It seems me very very difficult unless he already has the final product ready for tests right now, and this is possible but not so likely. Maybe I’m biased by the suffocating and endless italian burocracy (indeed we are among the worse countries in the Ease of doing business index, on the opposite US are at the top!) 2) Why don’t start with a full e-cat capable to make also electric power? If Rossi has already solved this isseu or is very close to, maybe could be more effective to postpone the sale for few months and start with the complete e-cat(with hot, cool and electric output) This would mean less costs for customers (no need for a second installation), higher margins for Rossi, and a superior product for competitors to match with and less time for them to retroengine it, increasing Rossi’s competitive advantege (supposing that competitors effectively exist but I don’t think so… at least defkalion isn’t it! It’s a stupid joke at best like all greek things )… Take note of this date for possible Greek default: 20 march 2012 If so bye bye Defkalion..
    2-Since the majority of readers are American I’m feel obliged to write this: Albeit the invention in mainly italian there’s zero chance it turns into a real effective product like curent e-cat without American free and open market, American huge demand for technology, without American tecnical partners and financial support (at least by the US military Entity) or even without many american technology like internet, open scientific databases availabe to all ecc….! Probably without US we will should wait several years for a basic e-cat and all enormous positive related effects (there are also negative effects as I have already pointed out). Perhaps without US it would turn into another monopoly without any benefit for people, expecially poor ones… costing a lot more.
    It’s only thanks to US that Rossi had the opportunity to develop his abilities, exploit his genius and has learnt how to lead a company in a real market (something that doesn’t exist in Italy, trust me!)… here in Italy his talent and hard work would has been completely wasted! All mankind owe a lot to you! Really! For all these and many others key improvements thank you very much US! god bless you!!
    Sorry for my disastrous english, only the message does matter!

  • http://www.replication-meyer.be.ma Stanislas Bauer

    He didn’t answer to the essential ! He acts like his demonstration were convincing. They are not !

    • Alain

      this article is smart about your question.
      http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/03/why-should-rossi-prove-it/
      Why should Rossi prove it?
      Reasons not to “prove it”:

      – It gives Rossi a competitive advantage to leave the scientific community sufficiently skeptical that they aren’t all busily trying to do what Defkalion has done.
      – Public demonstrations cost time that can be better used getting his product to the market.
      – No matter what demonstration Rossi produces, public or private, it won’t settle the issue like an e-cat for sale at Wal-Mart will. Remember, nine major scientific institutions have already reproduced the Ni + H reaction, and the world’s response is? ”Rossi, prove it!” Why Rossi, why not SRI, MIT, USAF!
      – Every demo so far has produced an barrage of armchair quarterbacks declaring that Rossi is stupid, or worse. Does he really need such abuse?

      • Jon

        > – It gives Rossi a competitive advantage

        No. It would allow him to file a patent, such making sure he’s the only one allowed to license or produce it. (Google grace period).

        > – Public demonstrations cost time that can be better used getting his product to the market.

        No. He apparently has a unit heating his factory, no? Let 3 people monitor it for some day, in a black-box test. That is almost no work for him.

        > – No matter what demonstration Rossi produces, public or private, it won’t settle the issue like an e-cat for sale at Wal-Mart will.

        The opposite is true. You really think Wal-Mart would sell a _nuclear reactor_ without scientific backing? Do you have any idea of the risks involved, even if it’s really working?

        > Why Rossi, why not SRI, MIT, USAF!

        Because he is the only knowing the “secret ingredient”

        – Every demo so far has produced an barrage of armchair quarterbacks declaring that Rossi is stupid, or worse. Does he really need such abuse?

        Every demo so far was, pardon me, crap. There was no independent black-box test, noone bringing his own devices, no test for longer than some hours. And yes, I saw the videos, and heard about the “secret customer” who was “happy”.

        There is no reason to not allow an independent black-box test, other than the whole thing being a scam.

    • Luca Salvarani

      To Stanislas
      The only definitive proof is to see the e-cat working in your home or in others. All other demonstrations obviously would leave some doubts.. so someothers call for another different demonstration and so on… Rossi is doing the best possible thing: face the real market and competitors!

    • MJS

      Rossi will face obstructionists in either the scientific community or the business community. However, what will make this product sell is if it works in the real world not some lab. So why bother wasting anymore time in the short term with the scientific community to advance your business goals since it just wastes time.