Rossi: “Titanic Step Forward” Allows Price of E-Cat to be Low Enough to “Forbid Any Competition”

Andrea Rossi has just made a significant statement on his JONP site which, if it all comes to pass, would put Leonardo Corporation firmly at the forefront of the LENR movement, and in position to make a major impact on the world energy picture.

A reader asks: “As soon as you’ll deliver a 10Kw thermal + 3Kw electric (that sould be 20Kw thermal) unit at 10K€ with 100€ per recharge I’ll rush for it.
What do you think of this price point?”

Rossi responds:

The price will be enough low to forbid any competition. At that point the reverse engineering will be a hobby, not a source of competition, so that everything will become easier. This is the battle we won during these days: we made a titanic step forward, derived from a lucky idea and from the huge possibilities our new Partners have opened to us. The price will be much lower than you said, but we will declare the price when we will be ready: remember, if I say one thing, I have to do it. Anyway: the first version will produce hot water and heating, but it will be able to be retrofitted with the electric power generation when we will be ready also with it.

A number of statements stand out in this post:

“The price will be low enough to forbid any competition.” How low would that need to be? To prevent competition, either through building a similar technology, or through reverse engineering an E-Cat, Leonardo would have to price products so low that no one would bother trying to compete, because it would not make business sense to do so.

“This is the battle we won during these days: we made a titanic step forward.” Past tense — apparently the breakthrough has already already been achieved.

“Derived form a lucky idea and from the huge possibilities our new Partners have opened to us.” He doesn’t identify the partners, but Rossi has already publicly praised the contributions of National Instruments, saying how they have been been able to teach things that will allow him to ‘fish for life.’ He has also said that Domenico Fioravanti, the consultant sent by the mystery Customer to test the first 1 MW plant, has been working with him on the production of electricity. Perhaps there are more partners involved at this time

“The price will be much lower than you said.” Much lower, then, than a 20Kw thermal unit at 10K€ with 100€ per recharge. How much lower than this? He won’t say.

There will no doubt be people who will be skeptical of statements like this; Rossi provides no evidence to support any of these claims, so those who are inclined to believe him do so on the basis of trust. This is a very bold statement — what if he is right?

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  • SklogW

    The us navy’s interest in the ecat may be to provide a non air dependent energy source for submarines. The cost of maintenance and decommissioning of nuclear subs is expensive. Nuclear reactors are also a tiny bit on the noisy side. If the ecat is as quiet as I’ve heard, it may be a developable technology for subs. Think of it as a battery that provides heat in lieu of a nuclear reactor.

  • kryptomaniac

    I’m more interested in home air conditioning than home heating, but after reading up on absorption refrigerator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator it looks like I could use 10kw of heat to cool my house, and sell most of the electricity back to the power company.

    Sweet

  • Steve Robb

    A better reproduction of the AMOCO PF experiment is available here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Lautzenhiscoldfusion.pdf

    I should be obvious from this that the oil companies are slippery eels that absolutely cannot be allowed to stop progress of CF/LENR.

  • arian

    #
    Andrea Rossi
    December 28th, 2011 at 9:52 AM

    Dear Pietro F.:
    The certifications are in course, we will have them made within Autumn 2012.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • clovis

    (we will declare the price when we will be ready: remember, if I say one thing, I have to do it.)
    You know’ this guy is quickly becoming my hero.
    Go get’m Mr. Rossi.

  • ostap

    3Kw electric from 10Kw thermal. Is it good? What max can be?

    • Jimr

      Its almost too good, Thirty percent effiency is about what large nuclear sites get. I would think for a small unit 10-15 percent would be more likely. But. I am no authority on heat to electrical efficiency.

      • philip eddington

        There is a theorectical maximum efficiency that can achieved when converting from heat which is the lowest grade* of energy to a high grade form such as electricty. It can be calculated by the Carnot theorum, ie:
        efficiency_max = 1 – Temp_sink/Temp_source (where temps are in a abosulte scale).
        Using the Carnot eqn in reverse we can establish a minimum Temp_source (ie: the temp of the steam) the e-cat would have achieve to get 30% efficiency- lets assume that the sink is ambient air at 300kelvin then:
        T_source = 300 / (1 – 30/100) = 429 kelvin = 156 celsius = 318 fahrenheit. (in reality it would need to be a bit hotter than this to allow for losses in the generator, friction in the heat-engine etc- but still not an extreme temp required)
        This is not an extreme temp for steam, heat engines can easily be built using common materials to handle temps like this (you can buy small off-the-self heat engines that work with temps like this.

        In your comment your curious to know if the efficiency of a small heat engine can match those found of large scale electricty production- they can!. In fact it is easier to make a small engine that works more efficiently than a large one. For example, some small play/toy sterling engines are *very* efficient and can work at close to the Canot max efficiency– I’ve seen one advertised that that runs off the small temp differnce between your warm blooded hand and ambient air temps.

        The advantage that large-scale systems offer is not efficiency, but rather cost per unit of electrical energy produced. It is vastly cheaper to build one gigantic industrial plant then 100000’s of small domestic ones– the big plant has ecomony of scale savings during construction, operation and mainenance.

        *NOTE: The grade/quality in a type of energy is the inverse of what scientists call entropy. Entropy is the amount of disorder in a system/thing. Energy of a low grade –low grade meaning that is it not very useful to do mechanical work– has a high entropy. Heat is *very* disordered and hence has high entropy and thus cannot be used very efficiently to do mechanical work (heat is caused by random movements and collisions in all directions of the particles/atoms in a subtance– hence very disordered). Electricity is quite ordered and hence has lower entropy compared to heat. It can do mechanical work efficiently (eg: electric motors are typically 90+% efficient while internal combustion engines are typically <40%)(electricty is the constrained and overall directed flow of electrons thorough a metal– hence is orderly)

  • Tomas Douting

    Oh the choice of words… Does anyone recall what happened with the Titanic?

    • nima

      I think he wanted to say “gigantic step”

    • Marius

      From Rossi’s way of talking, I would rather think he has made a breakthrough by using titanium in some part of the core, and maybe that way adding stability.

      • Marius

        If I dont remember too wrong, I think Rossi explained that the iron found in the used powder was from the stainless steel shell. If so, the presence of iron could be fouling the process and making the ecat unpredictable/hard to control. A titanium shell may have solved this issue. Just a guess.

        • http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/cold-fusion-a-resurrection-and-an-inconvenient-truth-a-view-from-europe/?replytocom=10913#respond praos

          Have you ever heard about Titans? And Titanic means exactly that: ship of gigantic size.

          • Marius

            Yes…and titanium is also titan in many languages….giving it a double meaning.

    • http://www.moletrapforfatties.com Mary “Fat Thighs” Yujo

      Remember why the Titanic was named (pridefully) the Titanic.

      I hate it when words get secondary connotations from tragic events transposed onto them.

      Back to basics. The Titanic was the biggest passenger liner of her day. She was thus christened with a name from mythological gigantic greek gods.

    • Farah Yousuf Faghey

      Hi I’m from east Africa (Somalia) and I speak & understand italian language fluenty…
      By “titanic” he means “gigantic”…
      BTW… Hope he’s right if this “Thing” works it’ll be a “gigantic step” not only for Africa but for the Whole World… & maybe for a New Peacefull Era.

      • daniel maris

        It could indeed augur in a new era of prosperity and peace.

        If cheap limitless energy is available then in poor countries like Somalia it will be much more feasible to desalinate sea water and pump it to places where it is needed for irrigation, or – even better – to take the moisture from the air and feed it into the soil, where it will not evaporate quickly.

  • fritz

    Supplies ???

    Maybe they will charge €2000,- for the unit and €300,- for a refill.
    Of course there will be a rossi chip inside that cartridge which protects the set and the cartridge.
    Thats the better comercial model.
    The Bill Of Material for such device is below $200,- , a refill should be below €5,-

    If I think about heating a typical household in central europe – the costs for heating may be between € 500,- and € 1000,- per year for oil, gas or whatever. The investment for heating facility would be about €3000,- per 10 yrs. or € 6000,- for 20 yrs.
    So we are talking about € 800,- to € 1300,- per year. So to shorten the calculation its € 1000,- per year all inclusive.

    If we think about an e-cat operating for 10yrs – we have a budget of € 10000,-

    To catch the customer for a new and quite unproven technology – its interesting to keep the initial investment low and get the payback on the supplies.
    So I think € 2000,- initial and € 400 per year sounds interesting – thats € 6000,- within 10 yrs.

    big money.

  • James McC (Belfast)

    I hope that the word “titanic” was ill-chosen.

  • arian

    quote from Amoco document

    This report will discuss briefly some of the early calorimetric experiments on cold fusion and in more detail, a single experiment just concluded.A closed cell electrolytic experiment has been conducted using a palladium cathode and platinum anode with accurate (+/-0.001 watt) calorimetric measurements. Results indicate a positive energy output of approximately 50 Kilojoules more than was input to the experiment through electrolysis current and heater current. The heat output was observed both as short term bursts of energy and as long term sustained production. Colorimetric calibration with an internal heat source showed essentially identical data before and after the electrolysis experiment.
    Material balance for palladium, water and lithium showed essentially no material had been consumed during the experiment. Tritium levels measured before and after electrolysis showed a factor of 3 increase that cannot be accounted for by concentration effects. It is important to note that if this experiment had been terminated after only one month the results would have shown no positive energy production.
    These data support the claims of several experimenters that anomalous heat and tritium are produced during electrolytic experiments using a hydrogen absorbing cathode. Further experiments are in progress to determine reproducibility and better define experimental parameters.

    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library…thwellEdit.pdf

  • http://www.replication-meyer.be.ma Stanislas Bauer

    Rossi dreams ! I know the industrial prices: even 5000 euros is much too expensive for a single unit. Industrial high scale manufacturing is not so expenssive. ( And don’t forget that dealers needs to make a least 30 % benefit ) He’s forgetting that there is a lot of people who want’s to share the cake and it is possible even if the nickel’s recipe remains secret !

  • Dr. No

    This is a next bold sentence from the Big Mouth. However, there is absolutely nothing which can persuade me – formerly a very interested potential user – that he is not liar and that the technology of E-Cat is real. Even the information about LENR is not reliable. The show becomes tiring. I am going to invest to classical heat pump system with solar thermal support and I will not wait for any E-Cats, Hyperions, Hot-Dogs or Liarions.

    • daniel maris

      So Amoco’s scientists and NASA’s scientists are liars?

      • Dr. No

        I do not say that. But the described experiments were only in a very early stage of research, no systematic work continued with published positive results.

        Take an example from electronics – what happened there: laboratory experiments (well reproducible by other scientists and engineers) with first transistors and integrated circuits were followed by a systematic research and development which resulted in “titanic” 🙂 change of our civilization which uses electronics in almost all areas of life. I do not see anything similar with cold fusion/LENR.

        This is something which cannot be suppressed by governments and oil companies – the necessary resources for the development of this phenomena are accessible for small companies and institutions. And especially in the USA where there are many investors to various risky start-ups we can expect that tens of companies will run to become a winner in this technology – but I cannot see anything but few obscure vaporware gangs or shamans dancing around their fetishes.

  • Prediction

    Bold statements are cheap.
    Can we see:
    – A webshop where you can order an ‘e-cat’? Preferably accepting major credit cards.
    – Delivery dates?
    – a comment of someone who’s already ordered one?
    – A video or report by an INDEPENDENT journalist/scientist just reporting on an ‘e-cat’ that ran for a couple of hours? (*)

    (*) you may think it’s already demonstrated. It is not. All we have are Rossi’s statements by Rossi himself, telling us that someone observed the thing.
    We also have re-tweets from journalists, who are repeating what Rossi told them.
    No independent verifycation. Strange grounds for mass-production.

  • Dario Ogliastro

    Funziona, non è pericoloso, non ha altro che pregi….
    Una considerazione….semplice semplice.
    E’ chiaro che l’installazione di questi dispositivi, soprattutto in case private, passa attraverso una regolamentazione con il gestore dell’energia elettrica. Occorrerrà, quindi, un accordo tra il gestore ed il privato. Sostanzialmente, una legge nazionale che regolamenti l’uso di questi dispositivi.

  • alexvs

    From time to time I visit this site. It seems that Mr. Rossi is answering the questions proposed to him saying what the demanders want to hear. Nothing more. Being convinced of the reality of LENR (by the way, any nuclide hadron change can be considered nuclear reaction), it is more and more clear that Mr. Rossi has achieved nothing practically valuable. Perhaps a further research upon Ni-H cell, not excluding other similar cells (Al-He, B-H, B-He, Na-He, K-He), would have yielded better results.
    But for the moment, Rossi, Defkalion, Aussie fellows and others have nothing, nothing to show but good intentions.

  • arian

    Amoco Oil Company replicated cold fusion experiment in 1990.

    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Lautzenhiser-Amoco-Cold-Fusion-Short.pdf

    http ://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Lautzenhiser-Amoco-Cold-Fusion-Long.pdf

    http ://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Lautzenhiser-Amoco-ColdFusion-RothwellEdit.pdf

    • daniel maris

      Wow! – never seen that before. That’s the smoking gun isn’t it? How can anyone say there was no replication?

      • daniel maris

        PS Someone was telling me recently I was very naive to believe that an oil company might seek to gain control over cold fusion technology and slow down its introduction.

    • Martin

      This also proves the oil companies will investigate any new and upcoming energy sources fully, then take appropriate action to protect there interests.

      Rest assured they will have posters on this forum and everywhere else monitoring progress and debunking LENR it at every stage. They will do everything they can to stop this technology if they see it as a threat, and they do.

      • daniel maris

        Well it does make you wonder who exactly was responsible for killing off cold fusion research. And you begin to wonder have the oil industry been pushing hot fusion research, knowing it is not going materialise for several decades, and may never be cost effective.

        I agree that oil interests do get involved on the internet. I remember coming across a site (can’t recall the name) that was ostensibly pro-solar power,but it was actually conducting subtle anti-solar power propaganda. There was nothing really wrong with what was being said – but it was unethical I think to pose as a being pro-solar.

  • Brad Arnold

    I think that Rossi is making this unsubstanciated claim with his eye on Defkalion. Bet they are sweating on this word from Rossi.

    On the other hand, the market for LENR generators is gigantic, so there ought to be room for at least two manufacturers regardless of their price structures.

    • daniel maris

      That thought crossed my mind. It might be an attempt to demoralise or confuse the enemy.

      Another thought – are we sure “million” isn’t the Italian way of saying “a hell of a lot”? We often use “millions” that way ourselves in English – “there were millions of people at the shops today” – not to be taken literally.

  • bachcole

    I believe in the reality of LENR. It would be nice if Rossi would stop feeding us words (read: bull) and start showing us something real.

    He needs to understand that there are at least 10’s if not 100’s of people working on this problem right now. Just the mere mention that he has done it is enough to get hundreds of people charged up and working on it. If he doesn’t show us something soon, someone else will.

    • daniel maris

      Well he’s made a definite claim about what’s going to happen this year now. So we have a good BS calibrator! I am giving him until October myself – a year after the last test – before I lose heart.

  • http://www.grupoice.com Jorge Jimenez

    In any case, the most relevant is in the truth of the invention, its possible practical use and its actual use as a power source, making it applicable to almost any process. The issue price will be a matter of supply and demand, opportunity and time, but the important thing is to think of that financial cost of an objective and feasible and will never believe that our chances away.
    Finally, pink or blue, whatever color or Ecat final form, provided that you keep all the technical elements that make it entirely feasible to humans and the environment, it is worth making it part of our already complicated lives of modernism , does not seem that wonderful? So I keep waiting and believe it will be a reality in 2012, the year that will be remembered as the year of global energy renaissance, and do not forget that I am writing today!.

    • bachcole

      If I could understand what you are writing today, I could remember easier.

  • daniel maris

    Well if this is all above board, I think the likelihood is that National INstruments have come up with feedback control that allow the device to operate at a much higher energy gain rate, which might be what is buoying up Rossi.

    I disagree with those who say NI are not “partners”. I think they have to work v. closely with Rossi. He isn’t simply buying control equipment off the shelf. Everything has to be integrated. NI are certainly partners in a non-legal sense – very close ones I imagine.

    • Wes

      Interesting point.

    • Robert Horning

      Is there any proof to your statement, other than “reading between the lines”? I thought not.

      National Instruments is a company that sells controls, monitors, and scientific equipment as well as industrial equipment. There is the remote possibility that NI has designed a custom control of some sort for Rossi, but that doesn’t make them a “partner”…. just a contractor for Rossi. Partnership implies shared risks and potentially even some sort of investment capital. If I were National Instruments, I certainly would want to stay away from doing anything of that nature.

      • bachcole

        Unless of course Rossi demonstrated to them that the E-Cat actually works for absolute certain, something that he has not done with us.

      • daniel maris

        Robert – I made it clear that was my opinion. But I don’t know on what basis people say NI are not his partners. Have NI ever said that? In fact I think they have confirmed their working relationship with Rossi.

        I wonder what experience you have of major contracts. In complex contracts, your contractor, or major sub-contractors,are indeed your partners. If you went into the project thinking “these guys are just there to fulfil their legal obligations and that’s an end of it” you won’t have a very successful contract. The contractors need to work with you and your agents as partners – putting an emotional investment into successful completion of the project.

        There is certainly a shared risk here – NI’s reputation will suffer greatly if it is shown that the device is bogus, part of a fraudulent scheme, because everyone understands that they are lending credibility to the project by their involvement.

        • Robert Horning

          I have quite a bit of experience with major contracts and working in “partners” with various companies, including hiring companies as contractors to take on some take or to buy parts for projects I’ve worked on. In that regard, I think I can speak with a degree of experience on this matter, even though it is not in nuclear engineering.

          BTW, my experience in working with contractors is precisely that they will “fulfill their legal obligations and that will be the end of it.” Heck, I’ve been in the position of being the contractor, and there are times where the goal was simply to get out of the contract without taking too hard of a loss or at least trying to simply avoid a lawsuit.

          NI’s reputation won’t suffer too greatly if all they do is simply supply parts, even if it is a custom part. If anything, their credibility will be enhanced because they will simply say “see, we supply to everybody, even cranks and nut cases.”

          • daniel maris

            That doesn’t sound very persuasive. They will definitely be tainted if they are seen to have lent credence to a fraudulent scheme.

            Of course companies do often end up in a legalistic view of a their contractual obligaitons, but – in my view – that is nearly always a sign of failure. Signs of success are when the various partners in a project are eager to please each other.

            In the absence of evidence to the contrary I think it is legitimate to speculate that NI and Rossi are working together well and making progress.

      • Steve Robb

        It should be obvious by now that NI are the purchasers of the thirteen E-cats. They would need at least a few of them for their work with the controls. If I were in charge of NI, I too would deny having possession of the devices but would be very interested not only in their instrumentation and control but also assessing the potential for manufacturing of the units and when Rossi takes his company public would be a major investor. To fail to take advantage of such a major development when it is sitting in your lap would be very foolish. Opportunity knocks for NI. So If you want to invest right now in the E-cat invest in NI.

        • Robert Horning

          There is no evidence at all that National Instruments has purchased or has in their possession any E-cat at all. If you have any information to the contrary, I’d love to see it.

          While I’m sure that the board of directors for National Instruments would not mind a buy endorsement for their stock, at least base this upon some sort of credible source rather than some vague rumor or something that has been spread around on the blogosphere rather than something provably real. National Instruments has officially disclaimed any sort of association with Leonardo Corp. or Andrea Rossi, other than as a parts supplier. Again I plead if you can prove otherwise in the form of a press release from National Instruments or through legal documents (SEC filings or something else that would put somebody into prison if they forged those kind of documents or lied in them), I might believe these kind of statements. So far I think it is a bunch of hogwash and wishful thinking on the part of would-be E-cat supporters.

  • Lu

    Marketing.

  • Hampus

    First he said that as soon the ecat list were 10 000 people he would start producing the domestic ecats, from what I understand that list was full in two weeks. Now he realize that the demand for this is big. That’s why he is stepping it up to one million, he knows he can sell it.

  • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    If Rossi can lower this price point and thing are ok he would have no problem finding customers for
    his production.

  • hempenearth

    Rossi has been fairly good at meeting his publicly announced time targets. His record with previous partners is not so good. Fingers crossed the relationship with his current partners, whoever they are (I understood NI was a supplier of goods and services rather than a partner), will remain strong.

    Economies of scale will always kick in with a mass produced product, but I’m worried that if they try to produce too many too quickly without firm orders, their financiers might pull the pin and shut the whole thing down.

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