A Crowd Funding Approach to E-Cat Testing

Many people who have been following the E-Cat story have come to a point where they get frustrated or lose interest because to date there has been no definitive testing of the E-Cat that has taken place, proving beyond all reasonable doubt that Andrea Rossi has come up with a true cold fusion/LENR invention. Rossi’s reply to people who want to see more testing to prove the E-Cat’s validity has always been to say that the proof will be working products in the marketplace.

One idea that has been brought up on this site recently that might serve to break the deadlock is that interested people might purchase a 1 MW plant through a crowdfunding project, and then test the E-Cat plant themselves.

Yesterday I send this message to Rossi on his JONP site:

Dear Andrea,

There has been some discussion on my E-Cat World Site about the possibility of creating a consortium to receive donations from
people for the purchase of a 1 MW plant for the purpose of testing and evaluation.
evaluation.

Once the testing was complete the plant could be donated to a needy organization in need of heat — perhaps a hospital, desalination project, etc. (you could choose the final recipient)

Would this be something you would approve of and cooperate with?

Best regards,

Frank Acland

Rossi responded:

Dear Frank Acland:
A Customer who buys a plant has the right to make all the tests he wants, obviously.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

So it appears that the door is open, from Rossi’s point of view, for a group purchase.

The question is, is there sufficient interest in an idea like this to make it work? It may be necessary to raise probably around $3 million in order to purchase the plant, transport it, house it and test it. You would have to have a very credible person or organization to spearhead a project like this since there would be obvious caution about donating to such a cause — and it may well be that the donor base would not be there to fund it. It would require 30,000 donations of $100, which is a vast undertaking. A project like this would need careful leadership and management and would probably require the creation of a corporation or non-profit carry it out.

I’m not advocating that such a project be started — but just throwing out the idea as something for people to think about, as one possible approach that could be taken for people who want to find out the real truth regarding E-Cat technology.Maybe there would be a groundswell of support for something like this from people around the world — or perhaps nothing will come of it. I will be interested to find out what readers think.

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  • Craig Binns

    Yes, they do! They know about Rossi’s past shenanigans, and they still want to invest. True believers don’t trust science – and they don’t trust courts of law either.

    They are innate “contrarians” after all.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Frank Acland: Good idea go for it! I am in for $100. Next step get commitments from 30,000. I say it is feasible given Rossi got 10,000 in two months.

  • Elias Freitas

    It’ so simple:

    – Create an “International Association of Cold Fusion Researchers”, based on the USA or UK.

    – Allow people from every country of the world to be a member

    – Members should donate 50 dollars to have membership. 100 thousand members would provide the association with 5 million dollars.

    – If the association doesn’t reach the goal of buying and testing an E-Cat, return the money to the members.

    I’m ready to give 50 dollars to this association. If the association buys the E-Cat, and the E-Cat doesn’t work as promissed by Rossi, that will be not a problem to me. At least, my money was well used to reveal a scam, and totally demoralize the scammer. I don’t mind if Rossi will be a few million dollars richer. If it’s a fraud, at least this subject will be “case closed”.

    Can we reach 100 thousand members?

  • http://www.replication-meyer.be.ma Stanislas Bauer

    Why buy a 1MW unit ? A basic 5 kW unit is sufficient !

    • Thomas

      The approach of AR seems correct to me under the present circumstances. At this time, a scientist of a well known institution cannot get the support to focus on cold fusion – even if he reads the e-cat news every night. It is more the scientists at the periphery who have no reputation to loose, to look at this, but they have no funding and their findings would have no credibility.
      Big organisation having the firepower and competence may start working on this without their names appearing and they may not be inclined to publish their results to keep competitors out.
      Sooner or later, a physics institute will get a small unit for test or a customer will allow tests. Till then, best of luck to AR with his approach.

      • http://www.replication-meyer.be.ma Stanislas Bauer

        Rather later than sooner for our impatience, fear I !

  • Jeff

    Don’t bother. Be patient. Time will tell. If it’s a magical new invention, in a couple of years lots of people will have one and this flurry of concern will seem to have been misguided. If it’s a scam, then in a couple of years it will be forgotten and this flurry will seem even more misguided.

  • the snake

    So, why isn’t Rossi getting in touch with Bill Gates of Microsoft. Bill Gates is involved with alternative nuclear energy projects. He has all the money and experience in setting up a business.

    • e–dog

      I still advocate stealing one.
      and it will be much cheaper! 🙂

    • Anna B.

      “So, why isn’t Rossi getting in touch with Bill Gates of Microsoft. Bill Gates is involved with alternative nuclear energy projects. He has all the money and experience in setting up a business.”

      Because Bill Gates does not want energy to become free, as he does not want citizens to be free. His alternative nuclear projects are just a facade.

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  • daniel maris

    Not a good idea when the parties concerned are so unforthcoming.

  • Andrew Macleod

    I’m in for $50 (CAD).

  • sapain

    hot fusion scientist r starting to jump into the lenr camp, testing has been done with palladium and starting reaction time is down to a few hrs vs a few weeks. neutrons, alfa and gamma and xrays r constantly observed, tritium and other transmutation r observed as well as heat generation.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    How about a contest to guess what reasons Rossi will come up with not to deliver an e-cat ‘in public’ if anyone takes him up on this, instead?

    • Wes

      Top five reaons why Rossi cannot deliver the e-cat “home” version:

      #1 – Foccardi lost the only set of keys to the factory door during a lap dance at the Grand Opening wine tasting party

      #2 – Rossi was trapped in the time-locked vault where catalyst is stored. He should be out in 2012

      #3 – A secret government agency bought out the first years’ production to power self-flush stealthy toilets

      #4 – A black hole, created by a runaway super-cat swallowed Rossi, Foccardi, and the entire factory

      #5 – The new e-cat “paint” turned out to be epoxy glue. Rossi is stuck to them!

      • Meloni

        #6 – 1992 four months in jail (suspended) and fined.

        #7 – 1993 sentenced to eight months confinement (conditionally suspended) and fined.

        #8 – 1995 gold smuggling.

        #9 – 1997 tax fraud.

        still wanna invest?

  • Robert Mockan

    There are probably many thousands of researchers in the US with the appropriate science background and laboratory experience who could duplicate the E-Cat fuel for $3 million in funding. If one wants to raise the money by “crowd funding” any one of those researchers can post the project details at, for example, KICKSTARTER, and reference their web site made for the purpose of disclosing their qualifications, the contract, and the progress, to all people funding the project. What do the people get in return for funding the project? How about a copy of the finished project lab journal detailing the method of making the E-Cat fuel, beta tested by providing the lab journal to a high school student, with instructions to make the fuel using just the journal for reference? Copyright the journal, publish as an E book for anybody else to also purchase (at a slightly higher price than the buy-in cost for the people funding the initial project). This is not rocket science, people.

  • http://none.com Emperor Rossi

    Of course Rossi is going go say yes. It doesn’t cost him anything to say yes. It will cost him credibility to say no.

    By the way, saying yes only means take a ticket and get in line! There are lots of customers who wish to remain anonymous ahead of you.

    • Meloni

      how can he lose credibility if he has none?
      *waits in line, ohh yes, almost there!*… *nearing the door*.. *reads sign @@ Closed* dang! where can i refund?
      it looks like a fraud, it acts like a fraud, it asks money like a fraud, it has a history of a fraud. its probably a duck

  • Pace

    I would say that since there may not be 30,000 people ready to give $100, or especially not 3 people willing to give one million each, and if we’re going to wait for 12 months anyway, then let’s just wait for the home model, since nobody’s going to power their house/small business on a 1MW plant.

    Also, we could try to get Rossi to sell us one of the test reactors he’s not using anymore, Based on all the tests that have passed, I’d say there are quite a few of them. That way we’d be customers at only a couple thousand dollars, if that, and well within our rights to test it to our hearts content, producing a few kW of steam, or whatever we want to do.

    I think a lot of people can lighten up about the E-Cat. If it works, there will be a home model and an electric generator shortly (2012/2013). If it doesn’t, then there’s no need to get angry with all those who spend a little bit of extra time reading blogs, since one of Rossi’s customers would soon blow the top off the “scam”. Every day that one of Rossi’s customers doesn’t expose him increases his credibility in my book. In 3-6 months, if there’s no substantive opposition to the E-Cat, and there hasn’t been up until now, then I’d say we can safely accept the E-Cat on good faith… that’s what bona fide means, after all.

    • Hank

      What’s there to be convinced or not convinced about?
      If you spent $2 million on a toy and after two months of playing with it. If it doesn’t work,
      wouldn’t you say something about it.

      The people that are demanding a explanations or
      proofs are just a bunch of parasite trying to
      get more info so they exploit it for their own benefit. Why should anyone go out of their way and have to prove anything to anyone?
      Have you paid for anything?
      Did anyone forced you to do anything?

      • HenryOlev

        If Rossi is not willing to provide independent verification of his claims then he should not be surprised when nobody is willing to do business with him.

      • Monkey 2

        hmm? usually people want prove before spending so much money on it. why is it in such a long time its still where it started? if i would made a e-cat, i would do anything to show the world to gain instant trust for investments.
        this more looks like you can buy test results.

        no one is standing in the way 😛 rissie keeps tripping on his own shoelaces everything so he doesn’t go forward. dang shoelaces! someone should have giving him Velcros instead.
        ohh well. *cant stop staring at Rossi’s clean history. keeps giving me hope it might all be true after all* ^^ eww look an unicorn!

  • Sanjeev

    Why not buy the Defkalion 45KW reactor instead of the huge Rossi 1MW plant, if public testing is the only goal. It is small enough to be carried by two men and will cost much less.

    It will need simple mains supply to set up the test instead of a 500KW generator (additional cost if you wish to test Rossi’s plant, plus it will need many more costly things and people just to set up a test)

    Only issue is there is no product ready to buy at this time. So you may need to wait for a few months and hopefully some customer will declare their Ecat publicly during this time. Anyway, the wait time for Rossi Ecat is 3 months, and it may happen that DGT will announce their products before that.

    There is this guy called ‘Aussie guy’ who wanted to buy a smaller Ecat but Rossi refused to sell for some reason. One can donate to him the remaining amount, if he comes out in public.

    • admin

      For sure it would make more sense to test a small E-Cat/Hyperion — but the 1 MW E-Cat plant is the only LENR product on the market as far as I know.

      Someone might be able to talk Rossi into selling a smaller-than-1 MW plant, however, which should be cheaper, but I don’t know if he is taking custom orders.

      • Sanjeev

        Aussie guy tried to order a 100KW Ecat, which was refused. Most probably the reason is that Rossi does not have the clearance to sell smaller plants yet. Or it can be intentional, so that the tech is saved from reverse engineering for some more time.

        Even DGT can be persuaded to sell a prototype for public testing as soon as they get the clearance. It can be installed at some non-profit org as a showpiece (Of course with the self destruct and GPS and GSM anti-theft working)

        DGT is still open to public testing, unlike Rossi, so if you want to test their prototype without spending a dime, its best to form a group representing public and do a test in DGT’s office. Perhaps Greek government can motivate them or a wealthy public figure can.

        1MW Ecat would be the best option but most difficult one, and Rossi would want you to sign an NDA to ensure that nothing ‘important’ leaks into public domain, which would mean possible withholding of some details, leaving a room for doubt. If it happens that the crowd funding plan works, its best to ascertain the conditions before paying.

        A problem with Hyperion is that if the test fails, it will not automatically mean that Ecat is also fake, and you would also like to test it anyway in this case.

      • Sanjeev

        Defkalion is inviting people to test it:

        http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4777#p4777

        Quote:[we are kindly asking everyone who wish to visit us in our HQ to respond to our honest open invitation listed in this topic. In the mean time, we do have direct contacts with serious and well known labs and research institutions from several countries that have visited us preparing real independent testing on our products. We will list their names when needed and their testing results.]

  • Sanjeev

    A very positive and brief article on LENR and Ecat. This is not a typical Ecat-only site. This clearly shows that LENR has entered the public awareness now and is mainstream.

    http://earthbagbuilding.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/e-cat-update-lenr-confirmed-by-mainstream-scientists/

    • morse

      I liked the article and video.
      Something is definitely going on in that field.

  • Hurley

    How long is the delivery time for a 1MW plant? This is a great idea but it needs a champion, maybe someone famous, with an established charity. They have nothing to lose by replacing a gas or electric heat system with a guaranteed E-Cat. It would need to be incorporated in the design phase to use the hot water. Another choice is to convert an old hospital with a boiler and radiator system. The problem is the skeptics are as loud as the believers, maybe louder.

    • Alexvs

      Skeptics may cry as loud as they can. Same for believers. It has nothing to do with the overflying question: true or false.

  • s

    Sorry people but it is Rossi’s job to prove that the device works and to certify that it meets all the necessary federal and state safety requirements. So far, Rossi has proved that it generates excess energy for several hours, if the data we have been given is accurate. Even if the device only produces excess energy for several hours, that would be one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. But, producing excess energy for several hours could be a long way from having a device that is certified to meet state and federal health and safety standards and is guaranteed to run 6 months with a COP of 6 or more.

    When one goes to buy a car or a computer or a boiler or water heater does one need to test it and verify it is safe and will operate as required? The answer is no and the answer should be no for the Ecat too.

    In addition, you would have to buy the test equipment to test it and pay someone to perform the tests. For starters, you could probably find a good 300kw generator for ~$35,000.

    • Lu

      Caveat Emptor.

    • http://none jetmech

      scienceblogs.com/…/2011/12/the_nuclear_physics_of_why_we.php

  • Thomas

    Is there any municipality that has the guts to want to become the focal point of one of the greatest human developments ever? A simple charity will not do. It needs to have a real purpose. Perhaps a large cathedral, or a university with many buildings to heat from a central furnace. I’d definitely donate to my alma-matre (SUNY) if they wanted to try to implement this on the SUNY-Buffalo campus.

  • racribeiro

    Hi,

    I don’t need a 1MW plant to test if LENR technology works, or not. As you know, there are several competitors and even some “low profile” labs.

    I would make a tender with some apecifications and with the budget. The purchase protocol must be prepared in such a way that, if the specifications are not met, then we get a full refund and the tender continues until we get something that works or LENR proved failure. In the last case money should be donated to some humanitarian cause. Any sucessful device should be placed in a site as a demo device to acessible to anyone. If no more need for public demo, then, give it away to someone that needs.

    My personal opinion is that we must prove the LENR technology, not Rossi’ e-cat.

  • JerryB

    Frank – you are over reacting at this point, in just one more month you will see that Rossi has been very busy on the back end. RELAX

    • daniel maris

      Yes, I am hoping Rossi has been busy behind the scenes.

      As the weeks go by without proper confirmation of either the E cat or Defkalion’s device scepticism grows.

      • Alex

        skeptics are bad! they ruin everything! the point is “believing”, only then you can make prove exist.

        *insert coin here to buy believe*

  • morse

    There are a lot of philanthropists in the world: Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Jon Huntsman are the one’s who are famous. They give a lot of money to charity and they all want something for the benefit of human kind. Why are they not aware of the E-cat? Free energy, green energy, good for the environment and all people on earth.
    They could easily miss a few millions to make this test successful.
    Bill Gates for example donates a lot of money to various charitable organizations and scientific research programs. And this is not peanuts what is necessary for the e-cat, but millions of millions of dollars every year !
    Those guys need to buy a 1MW plant, than we will all know for sure if it is real or not because the longer it takes, the more we get frustrated. So if anyone knows how to get in contact with the ‘big’ guys, please do.

  • MJS

    I’m game for twenty bucks toward a smaller 10 kW plant.

  • carlo

    I would participate only with a small cost/reactor (not 1 MW plant). Let’s say with maximum 20 dollars… and I want my certification too!

  • Keith

    Why does it need to be a 1MW plant? Could not adequate testing be performed on something smaller?

  • Nate

    Id definitly contribute a few of my hard earned dollars. After testing the plant might be donated to charity!

  • Michael Fidler

    How about putting everything in a 40 foot container and taking it on tour around the USA and then ship it overseas to differnt countries.You could charge a small fee and pay everyone back there 100 bucks plus they would be able to see it operating. What better press coverage than that, like they did with airplanes — barnstorming!

    • racribeiro

      Like!

    • Linda

      I like it too. Barnstorming is a great idea.

      I wonder if Mr. Rossi will accept terms?

      If he will accept terms, like 10% down and the balance paid over 24 months at 10%, you’ve got yourself a travelling exhibition, like P. T. Barnam.

      Now we’re only talking $300,000, not $3 mill. Which is $300 per share for 1000 shares.

      The upside might be 10x. After a roadshow across America, once the original investment had been paid off, the rest is cream. The exhibit could settle in Vegas as an attraction for a few of years and probably pull several times more than the roadshow.

      Just an idea at this stage, but I would definitely take a few shares of that. What we need is an impresario!

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  • Scott

    If this is set up correctly all donations would be a write off. Giving people a certificate showing there participation in this new energy paradigm shift would also be nice.

    I will be a participant.

  • timycelyn

    Frank,
    this is an interesting idea, but is also a vast and potentially difficult undertaking, as you very clearly outline.

    In addition, I fear that the timescale to get to a clear result from testing would be such that the world would have moved on by then, given the rapid pace of events.

    for this to happen, one would need:
    i)A proper (non profit etc etc) organisation set up
    ii)Recruit the (eg) 30,000 donors, then
    iii) place an order and get in the queue for a 1MW E-cat.

    To me, that all sounds like 6-12 months from now before ‘we’ could get our hands on one to start testing. What else will have happened by then?:

    Another e-cat owner allowing public testing?
    Defkalion facilitating black box testing of Hyperions?

    One way or another – for good or for bad – my hunch is that by the time such a consortium ‘reported’ it would be seriously old news.

    Sorry to be a wet blanket, and please, anyone who can point out what I have missed, please do so…..

    • Scott

      Worst case scenario is that it would be a fantastic gift to people in dire need of energy or water.

      • sdb

        No, there are many cases worse than that! How bout these two:

        Pay money, get nothing (either fraud or bankruptcy stops delivery).

        Pay money get non-working pile of junk.

        Either way you’ll spend months trying to get Rossi to fix it, then spend months or years in the legal system trying to get a refund. (which will likely be pennies on the dollar if lucky!)