NyTeknik Reports that Defkalion Claimed Knowledge of Rossi’s Technology

Defkalion Green Technologies has said that they will be making an announcement about their Hyperion products tomorrow, November 30th. In anticipation of this, Mats Lewan of NyTeknik is reporting details of conversations he had earlier this year with Defkalion CEO Alexandros Xanthoulis about DGT’s technologies.

According to Lewan, following Rossi’s severance of ties with DGT, Xanthoulis told him the following in a phone interview on August 5th, 2011.

“Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months … I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (…) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did”.

Xanthoulis also told Lewan that they had improved on Rossi’s technology, and that Rossi was not able to meet their standards of having the reaction run in a stable way in a 48 hour test.

Rossi has always denied that he had given confidential information about his reactor to DGT.

According to Defkalion’s recent comments, however, they are now no longer using Rossi’s E-Cat technology, saying they have developed their own LENR technology which will power their Hyperion products.

The conversation that Lewan is reporting is new information that has not been reported in NyTeknik before, and it’s not clear why the Swedish magazine has decided to release the information on the eve of Defkalion’s upcoming announcement, but the article will surely serve to focus peoples attention on Defkalion’s announcement tomorrow.

  • Jan de Jong

    Apart from whether or not there is cold fusion I conclude DGT stole information from Rossi without him knowing. I simply call that steeling. It is well known that the Chineese copy things “so now and then ..”, but DGT explicitly and proudly telling what they did is new to me.
    Is wonder whether the behavior of steeling and defeating is typically Greek.
    Anyway: I do not like this sort of behavior.
    And do we have to save the Greek now that they have made a mess of their economy?

  • Robert Mockan

    Defkalion says this is a LENR process. Rossi at least has the foresight to NOT call the process LENR (low energy nuclear reaction). Why is this important?
    The sale of nuclear reactors means the nuclear regulatory agency must approve it, and issue permits to both the seller and buyer, for it to be considered a legal transaction. The only way the commercial effort to market E-Cats has survived to the present time is that it has been operating below regulatory agency radars. But now Defkalion openly calls the process “nuclear”! Idiots!

  • Robert Mockan

    It is what Defkalion does not say that is most revealing. A 1:25 or 1:32 in/out power ratio implied by calling it COP is misleading. A 4% or 3%, respectively, conversion of thermal power to electrical power is required to just break even for powering the system. Those percentages are typical for “bottoming cycle” temperatures of low grade thermal energy converters presently used in industry, applying waste heat and waste steam. Thus the Defkalion system is an “amplifier” for obtaining thermal energy, and not suitable as a primary power source for electrical power generation. The question then is simply this. What is the power output in self sustaining mode, where thermal power is generated without ANY electrical power being used to operate the system? Rossi did focus on that essential detail in his demonstrations, even if the demonstrations were not done to every persons satisfaction. Defkalion also did not do the ONLY thing really needed to obtain credibility. All they need have done is provide a national testing laboratory with a sample of the fuel for testing in a differential scanning calorimeter, using material testing protocols for catalysts that are standard in the testing industry. In a calorimeter cell containing less than a gram of the fuel being characterized, under all conditions of vacuum and hydrogen pressure in an operating system, the energy generating properties could be easily (!) determined.

    Until this is done I agree we are looking at some very goofy R&D, advertising, and marketing plans.

  • Alexvs

    Neither Rossi nor Defkalion have showed any isolated “Black Box” capable of lighting a single 1 mW LED. When that happens I could beginn to think of considering this LENR story as something real.

    • Alexvs

      No matter how bulky the Black Box be.

  • Waiting

    Defkalion’s big announcement today included this:

    —————————————————————
    2. Third party independent tests for scientific purposes and advancement of theory

    Praxen – Defkalion GreenTechnologies is a strong supporter of LENR technologies globally. Greece can become the global centre for R&D on LENR technologies. We have already received numerous requests from leading scientific authorities, academic institutions and national laboratories from key countries to conduct tests on our products. Our policy is to accept their requests, under agreed protocol, and to allow publication of their findings. The process of agreeing to dates for such tests depends on the availability of our staff and labs, keeping in mind that we run a business, not a technology show room.
    —————————————————————

    So they will never allow independent, off-site testing. They will never allow independent, on-site testing with protocols chosen by the tester. And they will only allow testing when staff are available, so no overnight runs. Given the large size of the box, that means they’ll never run it long enough to rule out chemical heat sources.

    But they ARE willing to accept money from distributors who want to buy the right to resell the product someday. That’s convenient.

  • Paolotini

    hoax!

  • s

    I was really hoping they would show a demo of excess heat produced. When all is said and done, an ecat demo has been performed that showed excess heat by the data we were given. This new company has not shown any excess heat. Although I still don’t think the ecat should have been publicly demonstrated before more patents were issued, the catalyst might be so hard to zero in on that any information gleaned from public demos might not help competitors a great deal.

  • Francesco CH

    Defkalion is classy, they even have an official anthem for their company:

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/LS110238.mp3

    When you play it, the “pleasure sensor” on their device runs high…

  • George

    wow not only are these guys scum bags but they are stupid scum bags. All this type of unethical and unbelievably stupid behavior just continues to tilt me more toward skepticism about the whole e-cat thing.

  • Sanjeev

    From the specs given, it seems that the products (if exists) are far more superior than Ecat.
    The specs are very detailed. However I could not find any mention of prices or when can one order one.

    There are two models, with max 10KW and 45KW outputs and COPs of 25 to 32 !!

    These have two circuits, the internal one is oil cooled.

    It has GSM connectivity and GPS, which means, they phone home and there is a self destruct too….

    • Sanjeev

      There are no products, only a prototype. These are “pre-industrial” specs.

      This means there will be nothing to see for many months.

  • hubert

    at recharge only hydrogen tank is replaced an the powder will be exchanged in vacuum
    No exchange of the complete product…

  • hubert

    For homeunit they say COP better 1:25
    and industrial COP better 1:32

    Great!

    and SERIES D up to 36 without recharge

    • hubert

      .. up to 36 month ..

  • Francesco CH
    • Francesco CH

      Page 4, below on the right:

      does anyone know what “pleasure sensor” is?

      • http://blogg.vk.se/riskmanagement Erik

        A penis?

        • Francesco CH

          lol, It measures how happy you are with the device…

          Hahahah!!!

  • hubert
    • Francesco CH

      Note to forum users
      You can download the Hyperion Spec Sheet .pdf file from our site (Product section- d e f k a l i o n -e n e r g y . c o m / p r o d u c t s ) within the day.

      ____________________________

      It seems that Defkalion is still writing the specs…

    • hubert
  • Sanjeev

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

    This new section has been made in the forum for Q&A, still showing locked.

  • hubert

    Defkalion GT is now online in the their forum. Hope they will release very soon..

    • Bartek

      Wednesday 30th November, 2011

      Today, and through our company website, Praxen – Defkalion Green Technologies Global has disclosed its current work on Nickel and Hydrogen exothermic reaction using Chemically Assisted Low Energy Nuclear Reactions.

      The provided Technical Specifications Sheet is a first preparation of our pre-industrial Hyperion product. This data has been tested with progress made towards the design of a final product ready for market entry in 2012.

      Hyperion products will be introduced into the global market with applications for buildings, agriculture and industrial energy needs.

      Beyond the completion of the final product with all necessary certificates, our company has three key objectives for 2012:
      1. Agreements with companies for exclusive licenses according to country / territory

      We have received interest in our license agreements from 850 companies from 60 countries. They have already received an invitation for testing our products on the basis of a license for their country. We expect to sign contracts in 2012 and have already started talks.
      2. Third party independent tests for scientific purposes and advancement of theory

      Praxen – Defkalion GreenTechnologies is a strong supporter of LENR technologies globally. Greece can become the global centre for R&D on LENR technologies. We have already received numerous requests from leading scientific authorities, academic institutions and national laboratories from key countries to conduct tests on our products. Our policy is to accept their requests, under agreed protocol, and to allow publication of their findings. The process of agreeing to dates for such tests depends on the availability of our staff and labs, keeping in mind that we run a business, not a technology show room.
      3. R&D-based joint venture partnerships with companies in niche market applications

      There are many applications that stand alone Hyperion products cannot service. In these cases, we will enter into joint venture agreements with companies that have specialized know-how and technologies in their field, but who will be able to utilize and capitalize on our technology to create entirely new products with ours. Examples of such partnerships have come from interested companies in the fields of marine propulsion, water desalination, off-shore drilling, trains, telecom towers, heavy vehicles, and micro energy sources. These agreements will be consistent with Praxen – Defkalion GreenTechnologies Global product development and R&D efforts.

      Praxen-Defkalion Green Technologies Global S.A.

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  • Gillana Giancarlo

    Nulla mi importa di morale, di denaro, di brevetti…da qualsiasi parte vengano conferme che la reazione è possibile è benvenuta!Siano greci, italiani, eschimesi…
    Una cosa è certa: più gente si associa a questa scoperta si dimostra che quest’ultima non è una buffala.
    Se così fosse per assurdo, chi si assoccierebbe ad un giocatore che sta facendo un bluff? chi vorrebbe pretendere di avere scoperto o migliorato questo miraggio: i bluff si esauriscono nel giro di una mano (come nel poker), ma non si può pretendere che il bluff continui all’infinito..gli altri primo o poi ti scoprono e vedono il tuo gioco!

  • Martin

    Do we have any cold fusion doubters now?

    • Fred

      Do we have cold fusion now ? I still don’t know…

  • Bob H

    some poor caveman is probably lamenting that he should have patented fire so he could get royalties

  • s

    Whether or not a spectrum measurement was made that showed the catalyst and powder composition, I feel that Rossi should not have given any public demonstrations until after patents were granted in more countries. The patent for Italy has been granted but I’m not sure how much reach that one has. There is always the possibility of trade secrets’ being lost or stolen during any demo. Also, it seems that some of the people Rossi gave demos to or tried to work with are no longer cooperating with him.

    • Jil

      money, secrets, trademark and copyright. it makes us wanna feel like we should earn more and makes us good enough to get good plans/ideas to the grave when not paid enough.

      wait what? an invention? last time someone did a noble donation to human knowledge forgot to ask a copyright on it.

      +666 points for money. it doesnt pay enough to help others if really needed. noble deeds? whats that “free”.. noble? show that with money.

      ohh btw, everything is secret, dont ask for details and dont ask for who bought it. you wont get a reference or you get a reference to companies that mainly dont deny nor confirm all information.

      make a project about something everyone on this planet needs, dont supply independant information (or complete information for that matter), tell the people nasa looked at it (they wont confirm nor disconfirm anyway). when there is enough fuss outside, you make VIP passes that says “you dont wank and disbelieve like outsiders”. $$$ and say its not about money.

      if it werent about money, publish full information! be noble, be a hero. be someone else than “that guy with a mysterious box”.

      being stolen or lost? really? would be the most epic explanation. copyrights, ye thats a log on the road there, let alone if its true what has been claimed. all things combined, ye money and copyright is enough reason to not publish information that can help the human race. yet no hard evidence or independent research also comes out with the same results. trust! thats all you got and will get.

  • daniel maris

    I think a lot is riding on the Defkalion announcement. If it is credible, its light will shine gently on Rossi’s endeavours,but if it is as inconclusive as Rossi’s demonstrations, then I’m afraid the needle is swinging back to scam.

    We desperately need to move forward now.

  • Linus

    I see Open Source E-Cat in our future …. MIT license works well in this regard.

    • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

      Defkalion waited 16 days for their 15 day announcement so they are on a opath of stonewalling themselves.

      People forget Piantelli is filing patents and he introduced Nickel/Hydrogen fusion 22 years ago.

      I’d like to see all three of them get together and share the licencing. I’d rather see all three of these people spend 3/4 of their money on getting the product out instead of 3/4 of their money on legal fees.

      Defkalion is not prepared to offer anything we have not heard or they would not have waited so long since their last announcement. This announcement will be to say,”Wait till 3 months from now and then we can show you something”.

      • daniel maris

        It would be helpful who knows about the history could do one of those “rock family trees” to show how the various experimenters link up. I have a vague picture in my mind but am constantly being surprised by some of the links.

    • renewable energy guy

      The LENR gold rush has begun. Patents wont be granted and should not be granted. Let the technology be true open sourced and free…

      • Uppai Mappla

        I understand that LENR is a natural process and natural processes cannot be patented.

        UM

  • georgehants

    The main concern is that Rossi is fully credited with his discovery and receives the Nobel Prize and makes some cash, then sorting out the legal side can wait.
    If anybody tries to take false credit for his discovery that will be evil.

    • bachcole

      I agree with the evil part. Unfortunately, such concerns usually don’t figure in the internal calculations of those under the thrall of greed.

      • Kim

        Greed is now history.

        Lets move on.

        Respect
        Kim

        • Jil

          cool, now no one acts out of greed? moving on doesn’t mean people keep their old tricks. but everything is clean and happy right? ^^ (specially in times where no one has something, greed is history(

          Respect
          Jil

  • Per

    quite frankly. If they stole Rossis formula they can go to hell. Never again that we have another Tesla… Rossi is the true hero on this and ever will be..

    • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

      Didn’t Rossi take the nickel/hydrogen idea from Piantelli, who is also trying to patent this. The “catalyst” is not yet really known, but who says that was a unique idea either.
      Andrea Rossi has shown bad judgements about bringing this to market given how important and game changing it shall be. $2 million for a plant consisting of 54 3 reactor ecats (That defkalion developed).
      Black market ecats will be the most common kind if licensing for manufacturing and design modifications are allowed by manufacturers.
      I think Andrea Rossi will be left in the dust if he does not smarten up.
      Defkalion, Andrea Rossi, and piantelli should all share in the profits in my opinion.

      • Francesco CH

        Piantelli had a patent on Ni-H reactions, but he did not renew it. So there is no patent infringment concerning Piantelli. Instead, Rossi has a patent and Defkalion made industrial espionage on Rossi’s device.

  • Robert Mockan

    Actually if Rossi had intended to keep his formula a secret, he revealed much to much information in his descriptions of the E-Cat. A clue is that the activator is added AFTER the nickel powder. That means it is not originally dispersed among the powder. But atomic hydrogen has a very short lifetime in compressed molecular hydrogen, comparable to its motion path length before hitting another atomic hydrogen atom, and however created it rapidly recombines to form molecular hydrogen again. Any activator thus must be acting immediately adjacent to each particle of nickel in the fuel, so that any atomic hydrogen formed would be immediately accessible by the nickel for reaction. That in turns means the activator, if added AFTER the nickel powder, must disperse itself among the nickel particles. This reasoning leads to only one probable conclusion. The compound becomes gaseous at reactor temperature operation, and the gaseous compound disperses among the nickel particles. Finally, the gaseous compound must react with molecular hydrogen to form atomic hydrogen, ideally catalyzed BY the nickel powder. Antimony iodide is such a compound. It reacts with high temperature compressed hydrogen to form hydrogen iodide (a gas) and atomic hydrogen, and antimony hydride (a gas) and atomic hydrogen. Then in accordance with Le Chatelier’s Principle of chemistry, the hydrogen iodide and antimony hydride can recombine, to form the antimony iodide again. This continuous reaction makes atomic hydrogen, on the nickel particles, driven by the thermal energy created in the nickel reaction with some of the atomic hydrogen, and as long as there is catalytic nickel in the reactor, the atomic hydrogen forming reaction by the antimony iodide will continue.
    This is exactly the kind of reactions I have been studying with osmium metal, to replace nickel metal in a much higher temperature reactor. Nickel seems to work up to 450 C before its crystal lattice structure deteriorates. That is why it is called a soft lattice fuel. Osmium particles should remain intact to at least 1000 C.

    • Alexander

      Very interesting to read, thanks for that.

      • Robert Mockan

        Welcome. If you want to read more visit http://opensourcenuclearfuel.blogspot.com/.
        The latest posting is about that technique of activation. Until more information is released I have no idea if Rossi is actually using that particular compound. There are others that would work in a similar way, and we will know soon enough.

  • Dave

    I’ll believe Defkalion when they have an independent test. They won’t.

  • Luca Salvarani

    I hate Greece and hope they default as early as possibile! They are only thiefs and liars! The only thing they can do is disgusting yogurt!!!

    • AR Slnk

      Yogurt is a Turkish word.

      • Robert Mockan

        And mispronounced in English, at that.

  • Robert Mockan

    Most likely they are using antimony iodide as the activator. There are only a few compounds that could act to increase nascent hydrogen formation with catalytic nickel, and in the temperature range where the nickel lattice structure is still intact, that compound would work well.

  • Sanjeev

    Everything happens for the good.
    May be this is not so good for Rossi, but he also knows that sooner or later, everyone will figure out the secret. One doesn’t even need to open the Ecat to do that. With so many Ecats already working out there in wild, many people already know the secret, most probably.

    If Uni of Siena guys know it, its already out. They may not be able to act on it, as there is a patent in Italy region, but no one can stop them from selling it to other countries.

    This also means that the powder is so simple that an average scientist could find it out from the spectrum of it. It also means that DGT has a working product and many more products will pop out in no time. Overall a very good situation.

    Excellent journalism by Lewan.
    Fingers crossed for tomorrow’s announcement.

    • pierdonia

      SO you have no problem with stealing?

      • Sanjeev

        How does it matter if I have? It will not change anything. Better to see the positive side.

      • Johannes Hagel

        Maybe in this case we should enter into a discussion containing moral aspects. No doubt that stealing is in general not good and I can agree with that. However, in this special case we speak about something which MUST belong to mankind. Like famous pieces of art and music. So we may ask if the E-Cat should belong to a single person or company or if its benefits should be distributed as fast as possible arround the world which desparatly needs them. Maybe even by sometimes surpassing laws that have been made for situations not like this one? Hm.

        • Sojourner Soo

          I would personally welcome such a discussion, Johannes. How about it, Frank? Write something and we’ll discuss why patents, copyrights, and other means of protecting intellectual property are on the whole beneficial or not. It should be interesting.

          • admin

            Let’s wait and see what Defkalion say tomorrow.

          • Jil

            1995, locked up for the second time. gold smuggling and tax fraud. i cant confirm this….. but it also doesnt add much creditably. though we hope its true what has been claimed.

            doing something for free? this looks more like a bussiness model than a scientific breaktrough. ignore sharp questions, claim to have made something the world needs, a weird history, copyrights, patents and money. its all good enough reasons to take essential information to the grave rather than the noble option to donate it to the people.

            copyright is good enough as reason to not make something that helps the planet. he has the rights sure. he also has the right to die and never show the information (if true in the first place). rights, copyrights and patent is enough reason to keep the human population from getting essential information about generating energy for nearly free.

            money is worth more than helping the human race, even worth as much as never telling or showing the things you made to help the human race.

            protection of patents, copyright or other protections just fails…. it prevents information from being public or ever from being published. it blocks innovation because i might have invented something with the use of scanning barcodes but may not sell it cus it looks too much like an ipod :S. patents……. money…… lets call one of the secret customers, doesnt matter anyways. all customers have the main response to neither confirm or dis-confirm.

            it looks more like a soap than an invention that tries to be published at all cost.

            it walks like a duck, it looks, it kwacks like a duck… it much be a rat!

      • Meloni

        SO you have no problems limiting innovation trough copyright?

        where did the mentality of essential information go? that’s right, copyrights made it possible to block inventions and innovation in the name of intellectual property. its also the perfect cover up to never show what you claimed.

        but of course we must look at the positive side. taking what has been told as fact, defend that or let it be destroyed by copyright. but we also take that as fact because it cant be dis-proven either.

        very strange that copyright could be a problem when having a real breakthrough in science, very strange there is no independent testing and very strange people make given information as being facts. very strange no one can prove this is a fraud thus making it fact. very strange both fact and fraud ends up with the same result.

        not long ago we discovered neutrino’s can go faster than light. all channels on tv explained it 10000 times in detail without secrets. yet a breakthrough to make nearly free energy is such a closed project, project creator doesn’t have a clean history (cant confirm or dis-confirm it, look for 1995). its maybe even more bizarre were being asked for trust while its not trustworthy.

        money is worth more than helping others. why help someone out of good will. could as well take the project to the grave when not paid enough. money gives status and credits. psychologically you can make something thats really important for many people, create a lot of fuzz by people that dont believe what you make and the people that contradict the believers. from that point there is no certainty and you can claim not to ask money for your project. its secret enough to send out VIP tickets to the people that do believe in what you make (because they now feel special you selected them <- if being random or outside of the circle at all). let them see the outside and let them write on the internet. it adds credits even though the information was written by people that have no clue on what to look for and rather see only the outside.
        that's it, now you got enough credits and knowledge as where we are now. earned credits based on the importance of the project and independent reports from a selected group of people with no knowledge to look for what needs to be monitored.

        50/50… if its a fraud, tough luck. if its a patent problem, tough luck. if its a money problem, tough luck. if its a joke, tough luck. if its true, then yeey ^^ congratulations, you trusted a project based on the importance and took it as fact and yet luckily it turned out to be true and should think about the way something important as this has be brought to the world.

  • David

    Seems Defkalion has found the golden key…

    • daniel maris

      Well they haven’t announced it.

  • http://www.antiqueswords.com Rob Miller

    Gee, so where are all the flat-earthers now?

  • http://www.gravitymodification.com Greg Daigle

    Taking a spectroscopic reading without informing Rossi sounds not only like a violation of their agreement with Rossi… but there is the potential for theft of trade secrets to be claimed by Rossi.

    Interesting, such a rapid spectroscopic analysis, confirmation and improvement upon Rossi’s design, as claimed, suggests that the catalyst is rather simple compound.

    In a radio interview with Focardi in April (http://radio.rcdc.it/archives/sergio-focardi-parla-il-padre-della-fusione-fredda-ni-h-75679/) he states, “And the purpose of this secret compound is, I believe, to facilitate the formation of atomic hydrogen instead of molecular hydrogen, because hydrogen typically settles down in molecules, but if one has a molecule, it can not penetrate into the nucleus. So I think the additive is used to this purpose: it forms atomic hydrogen, which penetrates into the nucleus… Of course, looking at the [gamma] rays one can recognize it (and it will be a chemical compound, not just an element) and find out its components.”

    Atomic fluorine can react with molecular hydrogen according to the reaction F+H2 yields FH+H, which produces atomic hydrogen. But if it is a compound then one containing a highly reactive version of fluorine would be a potential candidate.

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