Andrea Rossi Working with Domenico Fioravanti on Electrical Power from E-Cat

Andrea Rossi has recently reported making a significant breakthrough in producing electricity from the E-Cat, something that had been a challenge for him for a long time. Rossi mentioned this breakthrough in the Tom and Doug show interview earlier this month, but didn’t go into any detail on the nature of it. Yesterday a reader on the JONP site asked for more information about the discovery, and Rossi responded with this comment:

“Actually, we have found a breakthrough with a primary fluid with wich the reactors remain stable when we make steam at 450 Celsius. We are working on it together with our Customer. I am learning very much from him, and in particular I am learning from the person who made the test of the plant on October 28th. This person, now retired, is an engineer who used to test for military concerns thermic plants and missiles, so that he has a tremendous experience in thermodynamics. Here is to learn really and, honestly, when it turns to learn I am pretty fast. This collaboration is accelerating the development of the technological declinations.”

We see Rossi discussing again the need for stability within the reactors, and apparently now an appropriate fluid has been found to maintain stability, and to allow for the production of steam at a high enough temperature for efficient electrical production. Earlier this year Rossi was seeking solutions to create electricity at 200 Celcius, so there’s apparently been a lot of progress made.

The retired engineer Rossi mentions is Domenico Fioravanti, the consultant that was sent by Rossi’s military customer to test the first 1 MW plant in Bologna. Now it looks like the two are working together to find ways to make these 1 MW plants (the military entity has ordered 12 more) produce electricity and steam, and Rossi is evidently learning a great deal from Fioravanti, and he seems to be very happy about the collaboration.

Rossi is not shy about seeking help from any source that is willing to offer it, and his teachableness could turn out to be one of his greatest strengths when it comes to improving his invention.

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  • Nixter

    Since this LENR tech is not 100% confirmed yet, we need to wait for it before all the wonderful possibilities can be realized and acted upon. All of the Pro E-Cat sites and other resources should collaborate with a plan of action ready to deploy as soon as the 100% confirmation arrives. There are a million ways of using these Nickel Hydrogen Reactors, but with a united front, we may be able to get pressure on the various Governmental agencies and lawmakers to focus on the most important, achievable targets. Government subsidies for electric car battery systems can be utilized as a model for pushing through the best policies. Perhaps resulting in a proper well thought out agenda for sensible, efficient R&D and deployment from the very beginning.

    Getting our old dangerous Nuclear Fision Power Plants converted or eliminated would be my personal choice for a first use concept.

    We will all benefit from having a united voice ready to go with a sensible plan of action that forces our Governments to act in a responsible manner that will reap maximum benefits for the civilian and industrial sectors first and foremost. The urge to spend all the intellectual and financial resources on the advancement of our various Military systems will be strong. We all are aware of the Military Industrial Complex and its proclivity to steer funding and attention to their own needs. Our unified voices will be a necessary ingredient to assure a equitable outcome for the overall good of humanity.

    • John De Herrera

      I agree that people should unite to ensure the best results for the new Energy Catalizer. The first problem may be the Gov. efforts to stop or stall the progress of cold fusion. Let us join and support the petition on the US Government:
      http://rossifocardifusion.com/us-citizens-petition-govt-over-e-cat
      jdh

    • James Pelsor

      Another way to promote commercialization is to use the x-prize model. Define a goal and propose a date and allow teams to compete. I’d be willing to bet venture capital would flow to the winners if cost effective commercialization appeared probable. While Rossi claims he’s in commercial production there is a long way between proof of concept and consumer quality and reliability. Just look at the issues Toyota has experienced in the last two years with undisclosed and seemingly minor production flaws.

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  • Pachu
    • http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/How-To-Petition-Government-Online.htm Alex

      Yeah Blacklight vanished. Wonder who bought them out.

  • http://www.neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    The electrcial discovery aspect is a distraction.

    If it is revolutionary or new or cost efficient
    it should not get in the way of the production sales of the e-cat.

    The main boiler manufacturers have been at the
    game for a while now some of them for centuries.

    Aside from a full scale indusrial power boiler a smaller scale factory manufactured boiler can be used.

    These package boilers also have a considerable
    capacity for electrical generation and all they
    need is a source of heat.

    • Jim

      Hell no!

      Redesigning it to generate electricity opens up potential sales big time. For a lot of the world, a unit that only generates heat is useful, but a unit that generates electricity too is far far more useful. Millions of homes aren’t designed with boilers in mind. Nor would a purely heat generator be useful in the warm months except for making hot water.

      I can’t really justify a $5400 boiler, but I can justify buying a unit to generate electricity! A 10kw unit that generates 3.5kw in electricity would be fantastic.

      • http://www.neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

        I agree with that it is possible to have
        in a self contained home unit with
        integrated power generation by some means.

        I am just pointing out that to get this
        on the market to a scale where it is
        available for us to see after this first customer it is not necessary to delay for another feature.

        The e-cat should try to establish itself
        before competition. There will have to be a lot of production very soon to have a real effect.

        I think possibly the word discovery was
        taken out of context. All boilers have to be fine tuned and adjusted after first intallation.

        He says he won’t get the home units out right away saying there could be some
        time lost with safety approvals.

  • LENR4you

    Convert LENR Energy (Ni-H Reactor)inside a Stirling Engine, where the working gas and the reaction gas are the same: hydrogen.

    The advantages are:
    There is a periodic pressure fluctuation to trigger the reaction.
    Powerregulation over the mean pressure of the hydogen gas inside the stirling engine.
    No water or thermo oil is used to convert the thermal energy to mecanical energy.
    Cooling power density is very high.
    Fits for power ranges under 20kWel for use in households and cars.

    The Ni powder must be fixed inside the Stirling engine with a membrane or by sintering.

    Warm Regard
    LENR4you

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      I have not heard of stirlings using hydrogen. It is explosive, and it is extremely hard to contain. Rather, high-end stirlings normally use helium.

      Further, the stirling’s working gas must be fully contained in the stirling. The fact that it is the same gas as is used in the e-cat core offers very little advantage.

      • LENR4you

        The advantage of using H2 as working gas == cooling medium is that the cooling power density is very high. The H2 flows trough the hot Ni Powder and cool it very effectiv. Result is that the temperature of the Ni powder can be much higher than in the cloosed Rossi reactor.

      • Peter Hunt

        Light gasses like Hydrogen and Helium are ideal for high seed heat transfer as is needed in a Sterling cycle engine. The Swedes have found mechanisms with polymer sealing of metals to reduce leakage.

        Synchronous free piston Sterling Generators have been built for 60 cycle if you want AC.

    • Robert Mockan

      I posted this reference earlier today. The thermo=acoustic generator with a linear alternator for electric power can be a sealed tube of specific dimensions containing hydrogen under pressure. No valves, seals, rubbing parts. No way for the hydrogen to leak. The theory of thermo-acoustics is based on the Stirling cycle, and what you said about pressure fluctuations maintaining the nickel reactor heat exchanger function also applies. See figure number 6 here:
      http://www.lanl.gov/thermoacoustics/Pubs/ICSV9.pdf.
      Designs of nickel hydrogen reactors from early Piantelli work included nickel sheets, that would be ideal for making combined heat exchanger and reactor functions in compressed hydrogen. With the Rossi activation technique (whatever it is) applied to the nickel sheets the thermo-acoustic generator design could go to very high power.
      In my opinion this is a perfect example of how networking global engineering talent could replace the E-Cat design with a superior design almost immediately. 6000 electrical watt output mass produced TAG(thermo-acoustic generator)units with NAC (nuclear active catalyst)sintered(?) combined nickel sheet fuel load and heat exchangers in compressed hydrogen, would be immediately superior to any combination of Rankine cycle E-Cat thermal power to electrical power design. Just looking at materials and doing a component count indicates the Rossi marketing effort for E-Cats would be in trouble the moment TAG units are built.

  • Alexander

    I’d love to be excited about it and all that, but all of us on the Internet haven’t a clue if the, ecat can do anything at all yet as there’s still been no proper demonstration.
    Lots of talk, lots of future ideas, but still no proper demonstration.
    Going around the usual scientific process is fine if you are going to actually demonstrate your work to the public directly, that would be great, it’s not always important exactly how stuff is happening as long as we know we can safely and routinely make it happen, details can be worked out later.
    But that demonstration wasn’t done, some may accept the tests so far as being good enough, or be persuaded by the opinions of others that they consider to have a better understanding of these things, but most surely are still in the, ‘who knows’ camp.
    Its hard to keep paying attention to it after the October 28th failure to deliver the clear and thorough test.
    Hoping for the best though.

    • Robert Mockan

      In my opinion what would be better than another demonstration would be a national testing laboratory to test a fuel sample in a differential scanning calorimeter to determine its energy generating properties. This would officially confirm the conditions under which it functions, the power output at different temperatures, under different hydrogen gas pressures. Rossi clearly must have a laboratory setup where the fuel is being made. Each E-Cat uses what? 100 grams? And the MW unit had 150 E-Cats. That means he had made 15 kilograms of fuel, about 33 pounds of it. And from the information that has been revealed the fuel cost is not substantially above the raw material cost of the nickel metal. Nickel spot price is currently $7.69 USD per pound. So the MW reactor uses 33*7.69 = $253.77. Even if you multiply that by 10 to cover processing into fuel, we are only looking at less than $2600 for the MW reactor fuel load. And Rossi is selling them for $2 million? That pricing structure is totally unrealistic and unsustainable. Global efforts will be made to manufacture the E-Cat fuel, and improvements upon it. The price will come DOWN, not go up, when mass produced. Within a year it could be possible to buy the fuel from other sources in hermetically sealed containers, already activated, for any body to insert into their own less expensive reactor designs. The stage we are in now, where there is indeed lots of talk without verified facts, will not last for long. Rossi has rubbed the magic lantern, once again, and LENR is in the news. It has been over 20 years, but the genie is back! And this time, thanks much to Rossi, the genie is not returning to the lantern again.

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      Please check out “If Replication is the Holy Grail…”, “What convinces a physicist?” and “Looks like science is already catching up” on nickelpower.org You will find that 6 independent sources, two of which are major American laboratories, have replicated Ni + H reactions. (Each of the six reactions seems to use slightly different methodologies, so there seems to be a lot of ways to react Nickel with Hydrogen.) Further, you will learn that the community of physicists who are convinced is growing. And you will learn that a few physicists have good theories of how they work.

      Though Rossi has not yet had the e-cat formally tested (he has now signed contract with the U. of Bologna to do just that.) there is LOTS OF INDEPENDANT EVIDENCE for the validity of the underlying Ni + H reaction.

  • OnTheWaterfront

    Here’s a interesting press release (if you can call it that) for ampenergo http://www.ltcva.net/ (you will have to scroll down a bit) even stranger is that you can get to the same page going to http://mail.energycatalyzer3.com/

  • Robert Mockan

    Taking this to the next level. An ideal primary fluid would be compressed hydrogen, already used in the reactor core to keep the nickel active and generating heat. A Brayton cycle generating system instead of Rankine cycle would be feasible at compressed hydrogen temperatures above 400 C (the higher the better).
    But an alternative might be using compressed hydrogen in a thermo-acoustic converter, especially if the nickel heat source were redesigned to be in the form of plates. Take a look here and see what you think:http://www.lanl.gov/thermoacoustics/Pubs/ICSV9.pdf.
    Scott Backhaus and Greg Swift have actually built the generator of figure 6, and combined with a linear alternator and the nickel hydrogen heat source, it could have one(!) moving part. That would be the flex spring supporting the linear alternator. This is the kind of design that, in my opinion, would be suitable for household use. It would have a maintenance free operating life time of possibly years, and the efficiency would be excellent.

    • Robert Horning

      The problem here is that nobody but Rossi and possibly Focardi know much about the properties of the reaction itself, what ranges of temperatures might be critical in terms of enabling the reaction, or what other environmental conditions must exist within the reaction chamber in order for this process to work. Speculation on the process is all fine and well, but until the devices come out you can’t really identify much by way of coming up with a real alternate solution.

      If the E-Cat goes into production, I hope we can find some of these characteristics and limits to the device. Some of the way that you can identify those limits is by testing the devices in extreme conditions, all of which are going to be needed anyway to permit these devices into homes or for sale in a general marketplace.

      There are so many potential means of converting heat into electricity that I think it is foolish to consider only one possible approach.

      • Robert Mockan

        I agree completely. As I have said before the only thing of value that Rossi has is the activation technique that evidently increases the nuclear active catalyst sites in the nickel. Everything else is just engineering, and as a fellow engineer you know we can not design without essential specifications. I would like to get a fuel sample in a differential scanning calorimeter so one could at least determine the energy generating properties of the material. That would not disclose any of the Rossi “secrets” but would enable the full effect of global engineering talent to make quick work of making appropriate heat source and generator designs for houses, boats, planes, and so on. There is no possible way one person or company can develop a product faster than networking among scientists and engineers to perfect the process and improve upon it. My own studies indicate osmium particles dispersed in a ceramic matrix should be able to operate from ambient temperature to at least 1000 C with suitable activation, based on the material properties of osmium that enable hydrogen absorption comparable to palladium (better than nickel) and lattice stability to much higher temperatures than nickel. But evidently Rossi has his own ideas about how to proceed. I wish him well, but I KNOW (as I’ve sure you suspect) he will be out of business as soon as global networking begins in earnest. And it well. The promise of LENR is too great for any body to continue to ignore it and not develop it.

        • Robert Horning

          In this regard, I would hate to be in Rossi’s shoes. I’m sure he is getting all kinds of phone calls and e-mails from so many different types of people that his head must be spinning just trying to get a grasp of what is going on, including quite a few people who are trying to take advantage of him and others who are genuine in their offers of friendship and assistance. Trying to figure out who is genuine and who is a fraud (from Rossi’s perspective of potential investors and business associates) must be bewildering.

          I encountered something similar where I was the lead engineer on a project that promised to cut prices for a product compared to our competitors by about 1/100th of what our competitors were selling their products for, on top of producing something that ultimately exceeded the standards that our competitors had as well.

          The problem I encountered was that the main investors, together with some non-technical managers jumped the gun with the announcement (it was most definitely premature in terms of press releases or even making deals for sales) and there also wasn’t any sort of commitment in terms of following through on what really needed to be accomplished. I learned a whole lot from that project, but mainly a whole lot of what never to do with engineering management.

          The sad part is that because of the mismanagement and other issues related to the development, the product was never released (although I have an engineering prototype for my own use… sort of limited because it was only half done at that) and as a result nobody is ever going to see what could have been had it been better managed.

          I’m seeing many of the same mistakes being made with the E-cat, so it feels like I’m watching the whole fiasco I went through all over again, just from a different perspective this time. No, I’m not certain I could even make changes to keep it from happening even if I was employed by Rossi, but I do know some of the problems he is facing by having been in a similar situation before. I narrowly escaped from getting a hit by the (American) Mafia and was under investigation by a law enforcement agency that ultimately was called off because of outside political pressure applied at the right time. All of that happened in part because of the radical design of the product I was working on, where I’ve seen other kinds of politics show up in various projects I’ve worked on since.

          It will be interesting to see how it will finally fall out, where my hope at least is that Rossi will disclose what he has done if he can’t make a commercial enterprise out of this, so others can pick up from his progress and continue. The worst thing (all of this presuming the E-Cat is real) that could happen here is the E-Cat be stuck in some developmental hell never to really be put to practical applications. I want Andrea Rossi to succeed here, and my hope is that he is able to pull off what is a monumental challenge on the route he is going at the moment.

          • http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/How-To-Petition-Government-Online.htm Alex

            Dunno, he seems to be doing well for a first start. 24 mil on the backlog, and climbing. All on trust. All of these first units, are relics the minute they get hauled away, because they are the few that will be handmade. I do hope he takes his time with the Home units, even 5 years would be ok with me. If even one blows up or doesn’t perform as it should, that is what will put him out of business. He has said if he is killed, or disappears, he has something setup to automatically release his technology for open market on the internet. I’ll bet that’s why the government wants to be able to censor it.

          • Robert Mockan

            If vested interests wanting to maintain the status quo of the existing energy and fuel marketing and pricing structure intend to stop Rossi from marketing the E-Cat as an appliance, they could do it by attacking the weak points of the device, and claim it is dangerous. For example, can Rossi prove that it will not suddenly generate more radiation than it is shielded for? And how could he prove that without a proven theory of operation? In the USA there are prohibitions for many kinds of appliances for many different reasons, depending on the region. Light bulbs, lawn mowers, water heaters, barbecues…
            anything can be restricted. The E-Cat can be proclaimed restricted, and Rossi would be unable to obtain product liability insurance, or any number of other ways can be devised to stop him. So I am worried. Until Rossi makes a lot more progress, and other people are making the E-Cat fuel, his efforts may still be in vain. I hope he has a dead mans switch set up, so if an “accident” befalls him, his secrets will be released to the world. Preferably emailed to thousands of scientists, newspapers, and governments.

  • Robert Mockan

    As an engineer my best guess about the primary fluid is that it is compressed hydrogen. It is already in the reactor core to keep the nickel active, and could be used in a Brayton generating system if a 400 C reactor temperature can be maintained. This design would not be easily adaptable to low power house use, but would be ideal for military applications. For example a nuclear submarine could have its uranium fission reactor replaced.

  • Ioon

    Could Rossi work with Chinese agency of energy?
    Hasn´t any contact?

    • http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/How-To-Petition-Government-Online.htm Alex

      I think someone posted on one of his earlier threads that China would steal the technology for itself, without regard to his American (in progress) or Italian patents. He might possibly be guarded on selling one or working with their scientists. Who knows, but it seems to have happened in the past with other products.

      • http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/How-To-Petition-Government-Online.htm Alex

        In fact, I think he was working on a self destruct device, should anyone try to open one of the units to make a copy. That is what was required in the American patent. I am surprised he has started selling the Bigger units, my guess, he hasn’t installed that on those devices. Probably because he was broke, but that all will change soon.

  • Stephen T.

    This is great news. If reactor stability can be maintained while generating steam at 450C then reasonable efficiency of electrical generation can take place via conventional turbines. Major progress.

  • Robert Horning

    So a mysterious fluid being used on a reactor of unknown design is going to magically produce electricity through some other unknown process that can only happen because of the nuclear fusion that is taking place that is largely refuted as even taking place by most outside scientists.

    Something here just doesn’t add up. This new “fluid” is by far and away all too convenient. Fission nuclear power plants have experimented with fluids besides water, but most of that research is available in the public domain and easily found if you care to look for it. The generation of electricity from a known heat source doesn’t have to be all that big of a mystery, with over two hundred years of people trying to come up with new ways to get that accomplished (going all of the way back to Benjamin Franklin if you want to be specific). While I’m not going to completely rule out some amazing and new way to create electricity, an amazing breakthrough in getting that accomplished on top of a dubious fusion reactor seems to be simply over the top. This approaches “too good to be true”.

    • Stephen T.

      The totality of the evidence in support of LENR reactions since 1989 is convincing beyond reasonable doubt at this point. Science only proceeds “one funeral at a time” because humans are a stubborn lot. It isn’t too good to be true, there are many hurdles yet to be overcome and progress though steady will probably be slower than we would like.

      • Robert Horning

        Suggesting there might actually be fusion going on with LENR and producing energy on a practical level which can be exploited through a commercial product are two completely different things. BTW, even there, the “evidence” that LENR even works at all is highly disputed to the point that most scientific journals will simply throw out papers submitted on the topic because of the bad reputation it has gained over the years. That those papers are usually full of problems that are never fixed is only part of the problem too.

        In other words, I’m not even going to concede the point that LENR even works at all and certainly the preponderance of the evidence is not sufficient for most people knowledgeable about the topic. I have seen some research that is pretty convincing from a real scientific level that there is some actual fusion happening through LENR processes, but it still isn’t huge amounts of energy being produced. A scientific curiosity at best, not something to base a whole industry upon.

        The issue here is that the generation of electricity seems to be a breakthrough as large if not larger than the E-Cat itself. That is where I think this is going over the top, as two major breakthroughs in completely unrelated areas of research seems extremely unlikely.

        This announcement only makes the whole thing seem like a scam that others are claiming that it is. This is also how scams work with fraudulent devices, as you can never really get access to the device as the next “new and improved” version is always going to be “just around the corner”, but never really there. Mysterious customers that may or may not even really exist and the theater going on with the E-Cat seem to be adding fuel to the fire that this is a scam.

        I’m not completely ruling out this announcement as legitimate, but what I am saying is that it doesn’t help the credibility of the E-Cat as a device either. Some very healthy skepticism can certainly be had in terms of this particular concept in terms of an E-Cat using anything other than typical devices which convert steam power to electrical power.

        • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

          It is well past the possibility of it being a scam.

          Dr. Andrea Rossi is not the only person claiming to have developed L.E.N.R. energy capable of producing electricity.

          We have Francesco Piantelli’s team, and Defkalion bringing products and patents to market. NASA’s LENR expert Joseph Zawodny filed a LENR related patent in March/2011. Zawodny gave a lecture about LENR at NASA’s Thermal Fluids conference in August.

          Go to ecat.com (Rossis website) and look at the acedemic support from those who have witnessed it.

          Many people are going to lose their jobs and are opponents to this. All green technologies will probably halt. New Energy Websites (like Krivits)will be pointless. Anybody owning a windmill manufacturing company will go bankrupt. Multi Billion dollar atomic plants will be cancelled.

          There will also be a boom that will take us out of the recession, but that needs to be based upon this product getting licensed or there will too many black market e-cats.

          Cars will function on this and 600 million cars will stop producing smog and we will be able to breath fresh air deeply, saving and prolonging lives.

          Google Brian Ahern (Air Force Research Physicist with over 26 patents to his name) and you will see he also is claiming a major L.E.N.R., and will announce his ideas at a Flash Summit in New York on Dec 7th.

          How could a scam scenario exist from all these angles? L.E.N.R. was not born overnight. Scientists have been plugging away at this for the last 20 years since pons / fleischmann.

          Defkalion says they have a superior product to Andrea Rossi as they have been throwing money at this project.

          Piantellis group says they can now output a 200X energy gain up from their 3-4X energy gain.

          We are just witnessing history unfold.

          It’s almost like Christmas. Ummm.

          • Robert Horning

            All of these other “independent researchers” or people making this stuff are all tied to Rossi in one way or another. Some of them may be “going independent”, but it is all with the same sort of wishful thinking and “magic” that seems to pervade the whole thing.

            What is driving me nuts here is that honest skepticism isn’t happening, and that true believers acting on faith alone are being critical of any sort of reservation at all. Sorry, I’m not in your religion, and it is a religion that is forming here in support of Rossi. That isn’t science and it sure isn’t engineering either.

            It is “Pinatellis group” or some other group of similar potential scammers who are claiming all kinds of stuff, but nobody that has anything you can hold, test, or even evaluate.

          • daniel maris

            Kwhilborn -

            Well, I agree these are exciting times. Perhaps the birth of this new technology will be a bit slower than you expect (after all Rossi is starting at $2000 per Kw – not a great price) but I agree the results are likely to be stupendous.

          • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

            Robert, please check out the facts before opening your mouth. You said, “All of these other “independent researchers” or people making this stuff are all tied to Rossi in one way or another.”

            Show me the link between Rossi and Dr. Mike McKubre of SRI.
            http://ecatnews.com/?p=1430#comments

          • Robert Horning

            Responding to Bruce Fast, as I can’t indent any more levels, I would suggest you review that video again. The connection between Dr. Mike McKubre is that all of the results of the E-Cat that were presented at this conference were generated either by Rossi or one of his supposed customers. My assertion stands firm and in fact you rather confirmed my assertion rather than made a fool out of me.

            These devices have not been sent anywhere for independent analysis, which was my point. Nobody but Rossi knows how they work in any detail, and in fact he is building off the work of others. It sure isn’t confirmation.

            It is a nice overview of LENR research BTW, but the discussion of the E-Cat is minimal at best. You learn more about the E-Cat by reading the Wikipedia article…. which isn’t a good sign.

    • EnergyGuy

      “most outside scientists”: There’s the problem, right there! Armchair scientists who “can’t be bothered” to do the right scientific thing, and examine the E-Cat. They may be real scientists, but with blinders on, unwilling, because of the pig-headed attitude they’ve been taught, to examine the claims PHYSICALLY, before jumping to conclusions.

      • Robert Horning

        These aren’t “armchair scientists”, but real people who have a far deeper understanding of physics and chemistry than you could ever dream of learning in your lifetime. They are also people who in many cases have made legitimate and honest attempts at attempting to reproduce LENR experiments and have come back empty handed, and certainly understand what kinds of energy and nuclear products ought to be produced from the claimed nuclear reactions.

        Inconsistency with the results coming from LENR research has always been a problem with the science of that more specialized area, as has the lack of serious radioactive by-products (neutrons, gamma rays, or other signs of clearly nuclear activity). Not all of those experiments have lacked those nuclear by-products, and there are some apparent LENR reactions that might be happening in a natural environment (aka in “hot spots” inside the Earth or other places) which could be useful for explaining some aspects of the world around us, so as a scientific concept it is worth exploring to some degree even if it can’t necessarily be producing commercially useful amounts of energy.

        I’m just saying that skepticism healthy here. BTW, the E-Cat isn’t really even available for most of these scientists to even examine. On the assumption that Rossi is going to be successful at making a commercial product with the E-cat and these devices are going to be sold on the open market, I’m quite certain that many university physics programs will be quite interested in getting one of these devices simply to check out how the thing works at all. That is most definitely going to happen before any of these universities install one of these devices into their physical power/heating plants.

        A good sign that something is a scam is when folks are complaining about some grand conspiracy that is keeping a device or concept from even being explored or discussed. I’m not discounting that “big science projects” can distort the picture and I’m annoyed at how Tokamak research has so completely distorted fusion research that almost nothing else in that area is being explored with any sort of reasonable support. LENR research ought to be investigated even if there is an outside chance that it may be a chemical rather than a nuclear reaction. But being upset about somebody simply saying they are skeptical doesn’t help and sort of paints the picture of the “true believers” as folks who are nut jobs not worth bothering to listen to either.

        I’m equally annoyed with folks who assert there is nothing here either, as most of those folks have a similar problem with a lack of any sort of rational proof. They just hear the words “cold fusion” and in a knee-jerk reaction automatically dismiss the concept. So far, however, there isn’t any sort of independent proof that any of this stuff is real, certainly not the E-Cat or anything like it.

        • Robert Balk

          There IS a very real possibility that the 1300 or so peer-reviewed papers on some aspect of LENR are written by scientists who have been fooled. Not by Rossi, but by a freak of nature. An effect, like a mirage, that appears to make more energy than goes in, but in fact only recycles the energy input in a way that has bamboozled Mills, Kullander, Focardi, Miley, Ahern, SPAWAR, US Navy, Josephson, Levi, Piantelli, SRI, Bushnell, NASA, MIT, U Bologna, Upsalla, etc… My point is these people want to believe they have over-unity, and have allowed the freak of nature to confuse their scientific prowess. These things happen. Look at mass hypnosis. It is likely as Mr. Horning describes, that all these people are suffering a kind of mass hysteria and are now conspiring to spread it like rhinovirus to the world population.

          I simple do not believe any of it. And I daily address my skepticism in a regular practice of spiritual rigor denying conspiracies (like 911)and sticking to what we really know… like laws of conservation and thermo. THAT is how you stay fast and true to your own beliefs, by not allowing the bamboozlers to intrude in your mind!

          http://ecat.com/ecat-technology/ecat-science

          • Robert Horning

            It isn’t all black and white here either. There may be something happening, but it simply isn’t being adequately explained so far. I promise you that the “1300 or so” papers on LENR are not all about devices which produce a net energy gain over the input energy, nor do many of them even claim to be producing commercially useful quantities of energy like Rossi is claiming.

            I have not asserted that LENR is a total fraud, but merely that Rossi might not be all that careful with his research and that the E-Cat might not work as planned. Or perhaps Rossi is wrapping himself up in legitimate scientific research for the purpose of trying to gain something for himself and perpetuate a fraud. I simply don’t know.

            It is a fallacy to associate yourself with somebody else, trying to gain legitimacy for yourself purely through that association. That is why “name dropping” is such a bad thing when somebody is doing just that, like “I know the Queen of England and had a telephone conversation with her last night…. therefore I’m somebody very important, aren’t I?”

            That is what I just saw here, and what I keep seeing with the E-Cat. Either it works, or it doesn’t work, and it annoys me to see people stuck on trying with pure faith to promote the product as working when they themselves have never seen it work.

  • rototo

    yep, if there was any kind of contract between US military and Rossi/Leonardo/Ampenergo, the detail would have been on usa.gov / defense.gov as it’s the law, guess what, there’s nothing, zero, zilch.

    • Stephen T.

      See how many of SPAWAR’s contracts you can find there. Their website shows dozens, maybe hundreds of projects they are working on. Do they all show up no usa.gov/defense.gov. Law is complicated. Documentation procedures can be slow. If they have something useful they won’t keep it a secret for very long. I’m guessing they just don’t want to start another 1989 style side show until they know what they have, whoever “they” are.

  • Luca Salvarani

    Great news!

    • Johannes Hagel

      Does anybody understand what the nature of cooling liquid could have to do with the stability of the LENR? As far as I understood the cooling liquid has no direct contact with the reactive part of the core. So how could it influence the reactions?

      • Stephen T.

        I suppose the key is to use a fluid which is very efficient at removing heat quickly from the local reaction sites. This would keep the reaction from becoming too robust at excessive temperatures which could interfere (weaken)the lattice or even melt portions of the nickel to such an extent that the reactor is damaged significantly. I suppose specific heat, heat capacity, even viscosity of the cooling liquid are important variables.

      • Roger

        The cooling liquid determines the amount of heat transferred from the reactor core. By improving the heat transfer characteristics of the cooling liquid the control of the temperature of the reactor core itself can be improved.

      • Giovanni

        @Johannes
        “a primary fluid”, not the cooling liquid, as I understand.
        Cheers
        Giovanni

        • Stephen T.

          The primary fluid is the primary cooling circuit liquid.

          • Stephen T.

            Also, the heating circuit for the secondary. (steam)

      • carlo

        Maybe drawing efficiently the excess of heat allowing the core to work in a optimal temperature? (no need for fisically touching it).
        And releasing easily heat to produce electricity…

        • Tom Andersen

          If you want a core to be stable, the best material to use is one with a boiling point just at or near the temperature that you want to hit. If the core needs to be at 200C for his water ecat, then he needs thick walls to make steam at 100 ish. (you can raise the pressure to alter the boiling point, though).The problem with thick walls is that the primary cooling fluid does not control the run away effect, as the core can get out of control before the effect of more boiling can take the excess away.

          In this respect it is not at all like a nat gas boiler, as they have a constant heat output, more easily controlled.

          With thin walls and a fluid that boils at 400C, you have a huge lock at 400C on the core, just by making sure you only usually boil about 1/2 or so of the fluid. This gives you a negative feedback effect. If the core all of a sudden pushes out 2x the energy, it’s temperature will not change – so no runaway.

          • Johannes Hagel

            Thank you guys for the helpful explanations, I now understand much better the problem. My special field (besides being a college teacher) is on few body nonlinear dynamics, which obviously is far from LENR related problems, unfortunatly!

            So thank you all.